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The Skin Game: From Redskins to Commanders
What happens when a beloved sports identity collides with evolving cultural awareness? In this candid conversation with Papamutes, Jack Moore—host of Moore to Consider podcast and lifelong Washington football fan—takes us on a journey through the controversial transition from Redskins to Commanders.
Moore offers a fascinating historical perspective on the team's origins, tracing the Redskins name back to 1932 when the franchise began as the Boston Braves before moving to Washington in 1937. He explains how the iconic Indian head logo came to be, designed by Walter "Blackie" Wetzel of the Blackfeet Nation and based on the profile that appeared on the Buffalo nickel. This history provides crucial context for understanding why many fans felt deeply connected to the original identity.
The conversation doesn't shy away from the complexities surrounding Native American representation in sports. Moore references polls showing mixed opinions within Native communities, shares stories of students on reservations proudly wearing Redskins gear, and discusses the contrasting example of Florida State's partnership with the Seminole Tribe. These nuances highlight why the debate transcends simple categorizations of right and wrong.
Perhaps most compelling is Moore's personal story as a fan who witnessed the team's evolution—from attending the first game at RFK Stadium in 1969 to seeing the stadium filled with opposing fans in recent years. His emotional connection to players like Art Monk, Darrell Green, and Sonny Jurgensen demonstrates how team identities become intertwined with our personal histories and memories.
Whether you're a football historian, a Washington fan, or someone interested in the intersection of sports and cultural identity, this episode provides valuable perspective on one of the most significant rebranding stories in professional sports. How do we balance tradition with progress? Who gets to decide when a name becomes unacceptable? Listen now and join the conversation.
photos courtesy; j. moore
“THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED OR VIEWS EXPRESSED BY GUESTS DO NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT OR REPRESENT THOSE OF THE HOST;
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You're listening to Unmuted with Papa Mutes. Welcome to Papa Mutes everybody. Today, my guest is Jack Moore. Jack is host of More to Consider podcast, where Jack discusses football history and the law. Jack is an avid Washington Commanders fan and he's here today to talk about the Washington football team and their name change from the Redskins to the Commanders back in 2022. Jack, good to have you aboard. Welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you, sir, appreciate being here.
Speaker 1:So a little background. I'm in Philly but I'm from Pittsburgh, so growing up, you know I'm a Steeler fan, obviously, and my wife and kids were born here, so they're Eagle fans. I mean, I'm surrounded by Eagle fans, sure, I have no choice, but it's fine, it's fine. So I'm kind of a backdoor Eagle fan is my point. In fact, back in you may know this as a historian back in 43, I believe, the Stegals, the Stegals, exactly right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an interesting story.
Speaker 1:I know the Stegals Exactly right. Yeah, it's an interesting story, yeah, I know it's fascinating. And then they, you know, got back to single names and Eagles and Steelers. So I bring it up because they never really had a an issue with the name. You know, it's pretty, pretty basic Steelers, eagles, unlike the Redskins through the year.
Speaker 2:I think they were the Boston Braves, right, initially. Yeah, okay, 1932, they're the Boston Braves and they play in the Boston Braves National League Stadium. So I did. I'm constantly doing research on this whole history and story and it sort of makes sense to me that George Preston Marshall, who I believe was born in West Virginia but he grows up in DC, is the owner of the team and he has a real love-hate relationship probably more hate with Boston as a venue for the team. So they're playing at the Brave Stadium. They're not getting good attendance, so they moved to Fenway. Now there's a little bit to the history of why the name changed to Redskins, but part of it, from what I understand and I've seen this documented in different places, maybe it's being true is a friend was like Boston Braves, you got a bad taste in your mouth. Now you're in Fenway Red Sox, redskins. Hey, that makes sense. So the Redskins was in part a break from the Braves. Keep the Indian imagery, the Native American imagery, but call it the Redskins. It kind of makes sense. Red Sox to Redskins. Since you were the Braves playing in Boston Then in the 1936 NFL championship, the attendance has gotten so bad.
Speaker 2:They the Boston, now Redskins have the opportunity to host the championship game. They've gone to this East West. You know the league originally is like 1920 and it goes through a couple of different names, becomes the national football league. There's a move to a championship game, divide the league East and West. Now they're hosting and Marshall is so upset with the city he moves the game to the polo grounds and they lose to the Packers. Now he's really upset the fans. So I believe it's his wife that says why don't you go back to DC, where you grew up, and make it the Washington Redskins? And that's kind of that part of the story.
Speaker 1:Now I mean, as you were growing up, did you ever look at the name as a negative stereotype? Did you ever look at the name as a negative stereotype, or did you just look at it like, hey, redskins powerful. The image of strength, I guess, is my point.
Speaker 2:I don't think as a kid. Well, I'm so unaware of so many things because we are the last team to integrate. Ernie Davis is drafted, refuses to play and there's a trade for Bobby Mitchell. So I actually have somewhere around here in all this memorabilia when I was a little kid I'm absolutely in love with Charlie Taylor and Bobby Mitchell Black men playing for the Redskins, and there's a little white kid growing up.
Speaker 2:I mean I love them and I don't know the history, no-transcript. I'm at the first game in 69, when it became RFK Stadium, january of 69, after the death of Kennedy, they name it RFK. So I was at the very first game, cardinals and Redskins. So to answer your question on that, looking back at the history and realizing the bad race relations, the team had the. At the history and realizing the bad race relations, the team had the Dixie in the fight song and sort of how George Preston Marshall is perceived. It looks like an ugly history. But yeah, as a young child I'm seeing a team with black guys, white guys and I believe Ray Shonky was Native American I can't remember if he was Native American or I think he was and there was a couple of guys that you kind of hear that maybe they were at least part Native American. But as a white kid growing up in America, I think, as a lot of people would say, certainly the imagery we got from TV and movies was the Western and we saw the imagery or the portrayal of Native Americans in every movie and these are supposed to be late 19th century type of depictions. But as a kid I thought it's cowboys and Indians, and I'm for the Indians because when the Redskins played the cowboys Now, looking back, did I think it was kind of clownish that the marching band was wearing headdress and all the red-skinned cheerleaders wearing little princess outfits Indian princess? It didn't really cross my mind because it was a white-centric culture. Clearly that projected certain images on other cultures. Do I think it was done in hatred? Absolutely not. Was it? Though a potential power thing is there.
Speaker 2:You know you hear people say like the fighting irish. If you're irish and catholic and you're a fan of notre dame, you really care that it's the fighting. You probably think that's kind of sexy. I like that. It's the fighting irish and the celtics in boston. You know the, the Vikings? I don't know, they're probably not on par.
Speaker 2:But again, to answer your question, no, as a young child? Absolutely not. It really wasn't until the 80s that I ever really remember hearing anything about. You know that it was potentially a name that was going to come into play and I remember in 91 when the Redskins went to their last Super Bowl and won, there were people picketing in Minneapolis at that Super Bowl against the Bills. I remember in 91 when the Redskins went to their last Super Bowl and won, there were people picketing in Minneapolis at that Super Bowl against the Bills. I remember that being in the news. Then it felt like when they got bad in the 90s Gibbs is out, the team's falling apart before Snyder takes over it seemed like it kind of became a back issue again because they weren't very good. It just wasn't in the news.
Speaker 1:Now, what about fan reaction in general? Uh, to the name change. I mean, I get it. You know, from the outside I'm not in the belly, but uh, what was the fan? I mean, do you understand it? I mean yourself, do you understand the issue?
Speaker 2:I do I do. You know, and in preparation to go on with you, I think there's a bunch of different things running. One is and I'm not sure that it matters is what does the name really mean? Now, I thought interesting that when the name was dropped in 2020, and again, like you said, the renaming that came about with commanders. With commanders, I'm, as I'm sure you did I see this first Native American Guardian Association and this beautiful guy that's a Marine. You know, once Marine, always Marine. He's a retired Marine and he's saying we, with our organization, want the name back. You are destroying American Indians or Native Americans in the culture by pulling all this and we want the name back. And his name is Billy Deakman. I believe it was Billy Deakman. He made the comment that in his study and understanding of the term Redskins it is a very sacred term in Native American culture as the warrior who paints oneself going into battle to, you know, makes a pact with God of putting it all on the line. I'm like, okay, he's saying that. Can he say that? All right, he says that.
Speaker 2:What I find interesting, though, about Native American culture and the team, a couple of things. You know there was a 2016 study. I believe it was the Washington Post and 91% of Native Americans polled, and if it's a large enough sample size, as anybody's guess, but in that 91% said I either don't care there's much bigger fish to fry other things in my life that concern me or they loved it. Now there's a young lady on YouTube who goes into genealogy. She did her own personal and she starts to get into this question of where we come from, what are our bloodlines, and when she finishes graduate school she goes to a Native American reservation Navajo Indians, I think it was in New Mexico and she says her first day and I believe she's Greek or Italian, her ethnicity I don't really remember. But she goes on and she starts to teach. She just got her master's degree and every kid on the grounds of this school have on redskin jackets and or Braves caps. So she goes up to a kid and said what gives? I thought it was offensive. No, no, that is badass. That is the baddest ass you know like a symbol you can have out there. I'm proud of that.
Speaker 2:Now we get into the part that's also an uncomfortable thing to discuss and I have several of them here, but the helmet logo that we came up with, as you probably know, was a gift from the Blackfoot Indians. Walter Blackie Wetzel gave this and it was John Two Guns White Calf who is also the image with the Buffalo nickel. So this is a Blackfoot Indian gift. They go in and say you've gone to the R helmet, which I have one of up here, which was the Lombardi helmet. Lombardi comes in 69, tragically dies of cancer in 70, but he wanted to make the team uniform exactly like the Packers, except everywhere. Green now became burgundy and he wants to go with the gold helmet. So along comes Blackie Wessel to say hey, put that Indian head symbol on the helmet.
Speaker 2:And I'm sorry, I know whatever offense is brought to people in history that is the most beautiful helmet ever. I mean, again, it might offend some people to say that, but it is a good looking helmet. It always was a good looking helmet and in that question of name is a separate thing from imagery and that's why the you know they saw the south dakota uh, senator, I believe it's south dakota came out and said that they wanted to get the logo back without the name, you know, to have some kind of throwback uniform or something where there's an acknowledgement of the wetzel family and, you know, maybe go back and wear the helmet at times. It's a complicated. It's a complicated issue. I was like who?
Speaker 1:who pushed the issue? Like who? You know what I mean? Like it had to change the name is pretty big deal. I mean, yeah, who pushed the issue? Is it native americans mostly?
Speaker 2:well, you know, I thought about that. Well, I'm going way out there, politically correct in the present environment, I don't know exactly what anybody can say still, but I did think about it. It's about five lanes. I thought about coming into this.
Speaker 2:There is the word itself, which there is a historians are in battle over and one of the battles is and I've seen the documentation in Detroit of to try to support this view it is a term that native Americans took on. That was first, uh, discovered by the French and the French put a word to it red people. It was pre-English, putting any kind of spin on it, but it was Native Americans saying hey, here comes some white folks that have come in to settle for good or for bad. Then, when slaves were brought in from Africa and African-Americans brought in, well, they look a different shade than we do. So it became an identification of we're the red people, white people, black people.
Speaker 2:I've heard that in certain treaties the Native Americans refer to themselves as red people. So there's that argument which gets you in a lot of dicey situations. Because how dare you? But hell, if that's what the people, that kind of coined the phrase. But does that mean it's not offensive today? No, is there still a reason to pull it? Maybe Now the next lane I think that's important is the cultural appropriation argument they make, that when they made the move to Redskins there was a coach that had questionable Native American heritage that Marshall put in the position, and there is the famous Carlisle school that Jim Thorpe went to and apparently in that early quarter century of the 20th century there were a lot of Indian schools, native Americans, that were really good at football, and they'd even had a team earlier in NFL history that was made up of mostly, of almost exclusively of, native Americans.
Speaker 1:In the NFL.
Speaker 2:Go ahead In the NFL. Yes, sir, yes, sir, yes, sir. There was in and out. Oh my gosh, when it comes to franchises. They popped in and out. You know, nobody could afford, uh, to keep the teams going. You know the stegall's thing we talked about earlier. That was a world war ii issue, but franchises were flipping all the time. So I heard an argument that george Preston Marshall, especially with his ugly history of race relations, had no business naming a team the Redskins and carrying all the Indian imagery or whatever. How dare he do so, even if he threw a couple of Native American players on the team, but they painted themselves in war paint. Then, of course, he was the master showman, so he did the halftime show, the fight song. Hail to the Redskins.
Speaker 2:All this stuff comes about and they go through the period where they're good. They went in 37. They went in 42. I think they played their last championship game in 45 and lost. Of course they were famously beaten the hell out of by the Bears in 40, 73 to nothing.
Speaker 2:But the opening of the team is good. Now they get to Washington, the league begins to integrate. They don't, and they go through this really horrible period of 15 or so years until Lombardi gets there. Well, there's not a winning season for 15 years leading up to Lombardi, but pre-integration, the teams are really getting bad. Bobby Mitchell, of course, famously becomes the first black athlete to play. They draft Charlie Taylor in 1964. He's a Hall of Famer, he's Rookie of the Year. So as the team integrates, there is a rebound. You have the Lombardi season. George Allen leads to Joe Gibbs and George Allen leads to Joe Gibbs.
Speaker 2:So that lane is the question of can you be white and make a team with the Indian name? But on the flip side which I find the interesting point to give this long answer to your question, what if a white group of American gets together and say, hey, native Americans, you guys that love the name and love the imagery, no, no, no, calm down, we're in here to help, we're here to tell you what you're supposed to feel. It is offensive, but I love the name, I love the imagery. No, no, no. You can't say that. That's not for you to determine. So if it is, 90% want the name but 10% adamantly think or opposed and think that it's insulting, I don't know what the answer is. Do I think it could be insulting Absolutely?
Speaker 2:But the other major lane is the question of what does Redskins mean? Not only the origins of the word, but is there something to this question of? Is it associated with bounties on Native American people? And I actually want to get into an article that was written. It was in Esquire magazine and this was back from 2014. Update yes, this was the title of the article. Yes, a redskin does in fact mean the scalped head of a Native American sold for cash, or pelt sold for cash. Now, this is what's interesting and I'm parsing words, but I think it's important and you know, again, this probably bring me a lot of heat, but this is what they have.
Speaker 2:Winona, minnesota, from the Daily Republican article September 24, 19, I'm sorry, september 24, 1863. It reads the state reward for dead Indians has been increased to $200 for every red skin sent to purgatory. This sum is more than the dead bodies of all Indians east of the Red River are worth. That's awful, no question about it. It and there are maybe unintended consequences too, and I don't think what I'm getting ready to say is a good thing either.
Speaker 2:But I'm no fan of daniel snyder, nor do I think anyone that's ever had a redskin history or washington football team history is really, really fond of him and what I? I couldn't believe what happened. I was in that period from 1966 on, where there was a 40,000 person waiting list for season tickets, the last games I went to in the last 10 years. There are 75% other teams fans there now with the command oh gosh, yeah, if you went to Redskins Eagles, let's say 2019, last year the team name, it was 75. To Redskins-Eagles, let's say 2019, last year the team name, it was 75%. Green, absolutely. And with the advent of StubHub and all the other I'm not trying to do an advertisement, but you know when you have all these ticket things, fan ticket type of situations pretty much the Washington people have been.
Speaker 2:Once the team starts to lose, they start unloading all the tickets and if you're in Philly, trip to DC is not that far Hell look at the family together and go down and see our team play in Washington and go, you know, yell and scream at them how bad they are. And that's pretty much what happened. And as someone who grew up in RFK and brother, I'm going to tell you what. If you never experienced RFK, you had to be there, and people that listen to this did know that place rocked.
Speaker 1:that was sacred ground yeah, I watch a lot of games. I mean I obviously I've never been there, but I mean, when you were there, fan yeah yeah, when you were there it was.
Speaker 2:It was a special, special place and I never liked the new stadium. It seemed artificial. It's 12 miles outside the city. It's out in maryland somebody god bless maryland, but I mean it's just not the same. The team needs to be in the city, but he's in ticket holder no, I never was.
Speaker 2:I actually, when I started going, I went with people that had it and then I you know, in the last 20, 25 years it was more of a group of us would get together. Matter of fact, I have the sean tayun Taylor the 21, towel up. I was at his last game against the Eagles and I've done a lot of podcasts where I've said this he's the best athlete player I've ever seen. I'm in Williamsburg, Virginia now and I can tell you we all know Lawrence Taylor's the best player To me. Lawrence Taylor, that's only Lawrence Taylor. He's right here from Williamsburg Virginia but the best.
Speaker 2:I miss LT. One time I had a chance to see him play. He did not play Redskins Giants but yeah, Sean Taylor is the greatest player I ever saw and I was at his last game and then the game after his death and I think that kind of tarnished that stadium. For me too, it was just so sad when he passed and the way he passed. And then it was another downhill slide until RG3, and I was at the game to beat the Cowboys to win the NFC East. And then I have not gotten in to see Jaden Daniels yet, but how do you not love him?
Speaker 1:I like him. He's cool under fire, could swing the rock, I mean, there's no doubt about it. Um, he's just uh cool under pressure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's good, I like him I think he proves another premise too that I've discussed with a lot of people. I think that there was a real rash of bad choices being made with kids who had a breakout junior year at 21. You know they had two years kind of red shirt and are sitting around one year red shirt, sit around a year, then they have a breakout season, then they go. Hey, I'm gonna go into the draft and the thing about daniels and you're kind, you're gonna see it more and more probably with the nil. Kids are getting some money in school but why not just stay in school? But he had 55 starts in college between Arizona State and LSU. The kid played 55 games and he turned 24 in December. I'm not knocking it, but he was no child when he got in there. I mean, you know he had some chance for advancement and I think there's too many kids that have been ruined at 21. The game is overwhelming and they never recover from their first bad season in the NFL.
Speaker 1:So is there a controversy? I mean, you're not in Kansas City, but is there a controversy with the Chiefs name?
Speaker 2:Yes, but not to the degree. Okay, it's funny because I did one of these podcasts on my own and I was told long ago you know that supposedly Joe Rogan famously said don't ever look at the comments, but I do one time and I get. That's right, white guy trying to explain, you know, native american culture today, whatever. But the point I made on the show and it came up in a short on youtube the point I was making is I didn't recognize why the washington team, under heat, didn't pivot back to braves, keep the, keep the image on the helmet, keep all that. And it's historically the first name. So you've gone Boston Redskins to Boston. I mean sorry, Boston Braves to Boston Redskins, washington Redskins hey, revert back to Braves, it's in the history. And Atlanta keeps it. So I make that comment along with their tomahawk chopping, still in Kansas City, and I said and they get no heat. And I literally then said well, I won't say no heat, but so I get this comment like it's a raging fire of hatred towards the Chiefs. So you know, I kind of go look at it. It's all four years ago. So, as the Redskins and indians are dropping their names, people are really pushing the cheaps.
Speaker 2:However, right before this last super bowl, there's some people in the parking lot making some some noise about it, but that's one thing I can say about washington fans. There was a hog gets. I mean that's interesting that in the 80s there was a bunch of men, women, wearing dresses that were businessmen. I remember that, yeah, smoking cigars and stuff, but when you look at how fans act, your average M1A1 Redskin fan had a jersey on, that's kind of all. I remember fan had a jersey on, that's kind of all I remember. Now there were some people that you might every once in a while see some kind of dress, but I never saw a tomahawk chop and I never saw certain types of fan behavior that you see in other places where native american mascots or teams have been used they have the seminoles too.
Speaker 1:Right and and was that Florida or is that Florida?
Speaker 2:State, florida State. That brings up an interesting point, because when this name controversy started I had a friend that said you know what Snyder should have done? I'm like what's that? He goes, he should have gone to a tribe, a recognized nation of one of the nations of Native Americans, and said let's partner and I'm like, talk to me more. And he goes well, you know why they never pull Seminoles right? And I said because the Seminole Indians are in on it. And then I do a little research and that's it. So that is the state team for the Seminole Indians. And if you say to them, hey, I feel kind of offended. They say how about? Screw you, it's our team and that's why it remains the florida state seminoles, because the actual seminole nation is in league with the college and they love it. So they do their thing. And being the seminoles and having a spear on the side of the helmet, you're not going to talk them out of that, because it's their team what's the overall?
Speaker 1:I mean this, obviously I know your opinion, but overall the fans in general. I mean I don't know if you could speak for everyone, but the overall majority of fans. So they don't like this change.
Speaker 2:They hate the name. They hate the name, but do you hate the name? I do, I do, I mean.
Speaker 1:I again I'm coming from a different perspective, not not a diehard fan of the team, but I said, you know, I was like commanders, okay, I like that. You know, I mean not the greatest name, but it was like okay, but again, it's not my team that I root for, but so you don't like it when you go to the games. Yeah, what percentage of people are still wearing the old school? 85 of red skin stuff like that's all they wear the jerseys.
Speaker 2:The helmets, obviously, but the symbols, some of that too, they wear helmets. No, but yeah, if you go to a game now, they're still wearing everything. And now that dan quinn's in, you know he was out one day with the w, with a hanging feather on his shirt, and it all hell broke loose like what's he trying to say? What subtle message is coming out there? And there's been talk again that they're going, they're going to have to revisit what every team does with throwbacks. If you're going to wear a throwback, what the hell are you going to do? That's something that has come up is how do you not throw a throwback? And is it the spear helmets?
Speaker 2:Less offensive as the arm, but it's got a feather on it. Less offensive is the Indian head. Is, you know, the two guns, white calf imagery of the buffalo nickel figure. Is that offensive? Again, I don't know how that beautiful picture of this native american can be ugly, I mean again. But now one argument that I've certainly heard that I've never really thought about because I'm not maybe in that position, but there have been native, you know, we're simply, as a people, not a mascot to others. Makes sense. But again, what if you're the Seminoles and you're digging the imagery and you love being part of Florida State.
Speaker 1:I know you're a baseball fan, Just curious are you a Capitals fan?
Speaker 2:No, I respect hockey. You know when you freeze some water and you put some in out there with some sticks. You know all that. I get that.
Speaker 1:I only bring it up because Ovechkin is about to break one of the greatest records ever. I mean Wayne Gretzky. Oh, you know, I mean, even if you don't follow hockey, everyone knows Wayne Gretzky's record was supposedly untouchable. So yeah, I'm a huge hockey fan.
Speaker 2:So it's like you know. Anyway, it's a big deal in the sports world. Well, in your opening I want to tell you too. I don't know what it is about me being from Virginia, but I think all of my favorite people are from Pennsylvania and I absolutely love Pittsburgh. Yeah, it's the most solid people in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not to disparage. You Lived there until I was 30. Moved here.
Speaker 2:It's a great town.
Speaker 1:Yeah it it's great town, yeah, it's wonderful. And I mean I could not imagine the steelers playing in a suburban area outside of where they are now. It would just be like I don't know, not the same viral passion driving, you know, 10 miles to get to the place.
Speaker 2:So yeah and uh. I also noticed a different fan when the stadium opened, so in rfk.
Speaker 2:You know you'd see some people coming in drinking with the paper bag covering. You know this is some. It was some, some guys off the streets. You know there were some cool guys and stuff, and then I would go to games and the whole corporate box that's beside you is empty, like nobody shows up. It's drizzling, it's a little bit too wet out or something you know, and you see bob's corporate whatever, and there's like 10 seats together. These are times I did the faint, like the what are the stub hubs or something get a ticket and then you look and there's like 117 seats empty. And you just go down there and you basically find the weather's not quite right. Man, rfk, every seat was filled. I don't care how bad the weather, it was just a different type of fan and you know it became more the suburbs fan, I think as well. Plus, you mix in losing, but in.
Speaker 2:But in the 60s, though, you know when these, the history of these sold out, started, it was the Jurgensen, smith, taylor and Mitchell show. You know, one of the great stats of all time. When you go back and look at Jurgensen, of course he's my favorite player. When you go back and look at Sonny, he was putting up crazy numbers for the 60s. So he has the great season where he has 288 completion, 580 attempts for 37,47 yards, which sets a record. Ain't those 32 touchdowns? And Taylor Smith and Mitchell finish one, two and four in receiving. That's an historic mark.
Speaker 2:Three receivers, a tight end and two wides or a flanker and a split, are one, two and four in catches in a season. So Sonny's lighting up the skies and they're six, and they're like you know, they tend to be six, six and two ties all the time and stuff the Autogram era, bill McPeak Autogram, but everyone's there because Sonny puts on the best aerial show in America and they lose 42 to 41, but he's lighting it up. And Bobby Mitchell and Charlie Taylor and Jerry Smith should be a Hall of Famer. But yeah, it was good times because the fans just loved it. So when Lombardi comes in, it's a new life. When George Allen comes in, they start heading in another direction and Joe Gibbs is a god there. He's just a god in in washington because he brought it.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this uh yeah, in a hypothetical world. Right, you have to eliminate baseball or football. Which one would you eliminate? Which one would you keep as a fan yourself?
Speaker 2:wow, I don't know, because, to be honest with you, this is another whole road we can go down I thought for sure you'd say football shock well, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:10 years ago I I played baseball in college and I am heavily involved in working with a lot of kids, a lot of kids that played in pro ball. You know I'm an attorney. I did play a representation worst business, worst business on earth. But it's kind of like I'm in baseball in a different way. It's like when I watch a game I'm looking at the player.
Speaker 2:I'm a red sox fan because, for whatever crazy reason, I love just remski I'm some kid growing up in virginia and I love yas and yas, one of the greatest players of all time. Then I fall in love with Jim Rice, and it's Fred Lynn, and it's Fisk and it's Dewey God, I love Dwight Evans. So you know, there's all these players in Boston that I like. I'm not in Boston, but when it came to my love of Washington and the Redskins it was an entirely different love. But what I was going to say, like 10 years ago, I'm on the bus and tell these group of guys I'm like guys, you know, pro football peaked in the 80s so I coach, I don't think those guys could play today.
Speaker 2:I'm like you don't think lawrence taylor could play today. You don't think reggie white could play today. Like what do you think those guys were like? I've seen him in person. So we get in this big, long argument. So when I put out the fire I finally said, okay, guys, who's your bo jackson? That ended it. That it. You don't have a Bo Jackson, guys, nobody's Bo Jackson. Dion was playing two sports. Brian Jordan was playing two sports. Those guys don't exist. Jay Schrader was the third overall pick in baseball and went and played. You know he had a career in the NFL. I mean it kind of flamed out a little bit there, but he could throw a football 85 yards. And john elway marino, warren moon, I'm sorry, guys, the player I don't know.
Speaker 1:You tell me it looks like flag football to me now well, it's funny you bring that up because I have a little segment I call this or that. I'm just going to run some stuff by you. Just tell me quickly. Yeah, your preference. Yeah, yeah, you kind of answered some of these already. Yeah, just for just for the fun thing, just to wrap it up, uh, luxury box or peanut heaven. In other words, you go to a game, you want to be in the luxury box or peanut heaven it.
Speaker 2:It depends. I've been in luxury boxes when when I was a lawyer. You know it's triple a stadium but I was luxury box I went to and I went more to like socialize because I could care less about the result on the field let's talk.
Speaker 1:Talk Redskins, I mean commanders, football, I mean professionals.
Speaker 2:Back in the day when it was Redskins, yeah. I definitely wanted to be down there in the rain and the mud and all the rest. I wanted to be beside the field, yeah. I wanted to be as close to the field.
Speaker 1:How about Jalen Daniels?
Speaker 2:or Joe Theismann. Oh man, you hurt me there, man, because I love Joe, but I mean gosh Jalen Daniels, he Not one year though. No, but Jaden, I mean he's a beautiful kid, he always thanks God for his blessings. I mean you can't, but I love Joe because Joe was a warrior. Joe was a warrior the night he broke his leg.
Speaker 1:Oh, that was brutal.
Speaker 2:It was awful. But you know, I saw a piece with him and Taylor together talking about it. What I thought, man it was like a guy thing is Taylor said I felt so bad because I respected you so much.
Speaker 1:Ripon. I might be saying his name Mark Ripon Ripon or Doug Williams.
Speaker 2:Once again it's two quarterbacks that won Super Bowls and then once again their commonalities. They had nothing on the back end of it and I used to say, and I love, I mean I love Doug Williams, I love what he did, but Doug Williams did pick the best day of his life to have the best day of his life.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, you peak, you peak.
Speaker 2:I mean it's like, yeah, that was a perfect timed day and Rippon was 91 Super Bowl, and by 93, he's a bent guy and he's on his way kind of out, so I mean, both of them did not follow well the Super Bowl victories. Joe Gibbs' 1.0, the first stint. The only losing season he has is 88, when it's really between Williams and Rippon as the starter and Williams has some injury issues. But yeah, neither one of them had a really good season to follow.
Speaker 1:How about? Would you prefer an offensive battle you know 45, 44 or a defensive battle?
Speaker 2:uh, I would never have thought this, but because of what's happening, guys, some of these chiefs bills games to keep going to the playoffs and all. It's kind of making me sick because I recognize there's no way either one of them is going to stop the other one. So it's kind of making me sick because I recognize there's no way either one of them is going to stop the other one. So it literally does come down to who gets the ball last. You're sitting there counting seconds, like okay, they're going to score here, and then 37 seconds later, mahomes is going to score another touchdown and ken allen score another one, and you're talking about four touchdowns in the span of a minute and a half. And that's really what. What's happening? So, because they won't let them play defense anymore, and I think that's really what it is. I think it's kind of an inferior product.
Speaker 1:You're leaning towards defensive.
Speaker 2:I respected that. Yeah. Yeah, now that everything is a pinball machine scoring, I wouldn't say it's boring, but there seems to be something lacking in the competition end of it.
Speaker 1:I think with the defensive thing, a break meant a lot more yeah, I mean, I think I know the answer to this next one. I was going to say old school, 70s football or today's game oh, definitely 70s, although my peak time would be 80s, I thought.
Speaker 1:I mean, I met before they softened it up. And you know, I mean like the kickoff rule and onside kicks. I don't like. I don't like the new kickoff rule. I understand the safety part, but you know, and then you've got to tell someone you're going to make an onside kick. Also I don't get it.
Speaker 2:No, that's.
Speaker 1:I like the surprise element.
Speaker 2:Well and this is something else, too, that I hate about baseball with you, don't throw the four pitches for the walk anymore. I don't like that either.
Speaker 1:I like the pitch count though I do like that or not the pitch count, the pitch clock. I thought I wouldn't, but I like that.
Speaker 2:I've gotten used to it, but that was always one of the beauties of baseball. There is no clock.
Speaker 1:The last one, john Riggins, or Clinton Portis.
Speaker 2:Well, actually, I think the world of Clinton Portis, I think the world of Clinton Porter sucks too. I really do. Great player and he was traded for Champ Bailey, which did break my heart, because Champ Bailey is one of those guys like Sean Taylor. You had to see it. As a matter of fact, I saw Champ Bailey, deion Sanders and Daryl Green on the same team in 2000. And they could all run, but Champ Bailey was twice as big. So he's one of my favorites. So it's kind of hard not to love Riggins more than anything because he got us a ring and he's a Hall of Famer and yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean I'd take Riggins over him if you're pushing me on that. But, Clinton, if you're listening, I love you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we thought the world. So who is your Mount Rushmore of Washington commanders teams or Redskins commanders over the years?
Speaker 2:Mount Rushmore- who's on that? You know that's that has been asked and I am. It's not like my license plate is SJ9 HOF. It's like Sonny Jurgensen, Not like. That's how I still get risk in tags. I haven't given them up in Virginia.
Speaker 1:But you're putting Jurgensen on there, right.
Speaker 2:I have to put Sonny, but that's. I think that there's a. The problem is that I think Sammy Ball has to be on there. Sammy Ball is an all-around player, defensive back I mean. He literally had a game with four touchdown passes and four interceptions in the same game and he was the league's best punter, and for many years he was the history's best punter, until I think some people have passed him is he playing?
Speaker 1:is he playing from 37? To?
Speaker 2:52, but yeah, all right, he's there ball jergensen well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna hold off on sunny for a moment because, as hard as that is, I think ball has to be on it and I think charlie taylor has to be on it. I think charlie taylor has to be on it. I think Charlie Taylor has to be on it. He is a Hall of Famer. But then I get all wound around the axle about Mitchell, because Mitchell was a pioneer and a Hall of Famer and he's one of the numbers that's retired.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of choices. I mean it's a tough wall.
Speaker 2:Daryl Green generally goes under. So I'll just throw out some names and then we can kind of pare down. But the other guy I tell you, when it gets into the emotional hard stuff, love a player more than anybody. It's Art Monk. I mean, I don't know that I ever loved a player as much as I did Monk and I was one pissed off human being for the longest time. And I'll tell you something this is controversial too. I think that Gibbs, christianity and the type of guys he brought in really was something that hurt them for recognition.
Speaker 2:If you watch and I watched it the other night the induction of Daryl Green and Art Monk, a lot of what they talk about is their love of their wife, their children, their families and God. Whether people like it or not, that's who they are. Like it or not, that's who they are right. And I remember sometime a friend of mine said well, I don't know if monk was. I said you know what?
Speaker 2:When you leave a game, when you leave a game of competition and you've done more of it that you got paid for than anyone that ever played you're a hall of famer. He left the game the number one, all-time receiver for receptions. He got blown away down the line by jerry rice and other receivers. But how can you leave the game catching the ball more than any way? Well, he didn't have a signature catch. I said you know, I think a lot of it is. He slept with his own wife. He never got a stint in jail, you know, and he's a beautiful guy and he's very quiet. He handed the ball to the official. He didn't have an elaborate scheme of how he's going to celebrate. I really believe that hurt him. Now, daryl Green was a little bit different character, but also a man of God, and he got in on first ballot. But I don't see how Art Monk takes eight years to get in.
Speaker 1:So you're putting him on the mountain, I mean the Mount Rushmore.
Speaker 2:Well, he's my guy, so, but Well, let's do it.
Speaker 1:You got Ball, you got Monk Green. You got ball, you got monk.
Speaker 2:Green. Green has to be on it.
Speaker 1:Joe. Joe Theismann, no.
Speaker 2:No, joe's not ahead of Sonny, for sure. Okay, I'm going to go Sonny. I'm going to go Sonny ball and I'm going to. I'm going to go monk and green and like that, yeah, but still I'm leaving off guys I love. That's fine. I still love Bobby Mitchell and Charlie Taylor.
Speaker 1:Jack, this has been great. I mean a lot of information, a lot of good stuff. I really appreciate you coming on, though I learned a lot of history.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it, man. I appreciate being here and a good Pittsburgh guy like yourself, I'd love to have you come see me one time on a show yeah, I want your Steeler views on it. And Pirates I want you to give me some pirate stories if you're into baseball. On the pirate side skeins.
Speaker 1:Thank god for paul skeins yeah, yeah, there's some good.
Speaker 2:There's some good history, though you got some great players you have been listening to unmuted with pop.
