Papamutes
Authors, Books & More - Hosted by Papamutes. Get to know the authors behind their books. It's fun and laughs are always welcome.
Papamutes
Unmasking Evil: A Wife's Journey Through Her Husband's Double Life
When Amanda Quick's husband didn't come home one night in 2016, she never imagined she would discover he'd been arrested for attempted human trafficking. As a stay-at-home mother to three children under six, Amanda's world shattered in an instant, launching her into a four-year journey of uncovering painful truths about the man she thought she knew.
Amanda's story challenges everything we think we know about human trafficking. Far from the shipping containers and border crossings we imagine, this crime hides in plain sight—in small towns, in seemingly normal marriages, and behind the façades of ordinary people. Her husband, a nerdy IT professional who traveled for work, had been leading a double life for years while she raised their children, completely unaware of his sinister activities.
The most shocking aspect of Amanda's journey wasn't just her husband's crimes, but how the justice system handled them. Despite being caught attempting to purchase children in a sting operation, he received only probation—no jail time. Even more disturbing, as a sex offender in Colorado, he maintained his constitutional right to parent his own children, forcing Amanda into a separate custody battle that required enormous emotional strength and financial resources that many victims simply don't have.
Through raw, honest storytelling, Amanda reveals the subtle red flags she missed—not physical abuse, but the insidious emotional control that eroded her identity and confidence over time. Her memoir explores trauma bonding, gaslighting, and the complex psychological warfare that abusers employ. Yet her story ultimately becomes one of profound transformation and hope as she describes the spiritual awakening that helped her break free, gain full custody of her children, and create the Golden Haven Foundation to help others facing similar battles.
What makes this story so crucial is that it reveals perspectives rarely discussed in conversations about trafficking. If you believe this crime only happens somewhere else to someone else, Amanda's powerful testimony will change your understanding forever. Her courage in sharing this journey offers a lifeline to others who may be living their own version of this nightmare, showing that healing and reclaiming your power is possible even after unimaginable betrayal.
Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Castro, Google Podcasts or wherever you stream your podcasts.
You're listening to.
Speaker 2:Unmuted with Papa Mutes.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Papa Mutes, everybody. Today, my guest is Amanda Quick. Amanda is an international bestselling author. Her memoir the Sex Trafficker's Wife the story of truth, faith and trust in yourself shares the biggest trauma of her life when her ex-husband was arrested for attempted human trafficking. You don't want to miss this one. I'm thrilled to have her on, amanda. Welcome to Papa Mutes.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is obviously a sad story.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But why write a book?
Speaker 2:So after everything was over, after my divorce was finalized, after the chaos ended, there was a deep calling in me to speak this story. There was this realization that I succeeded at something that so many people don't. So many people end up sharing custody with their abusers and their children's abusers so many people, you know. The system does not get things right, unfortunately, most of the time. And not only that, but I lived through something so shocking. It felt like I was, you know, it was better than a Lifetime movie, kind of just my real life. And people told me over and over you should write a book. This is crazy.
Speaker 2:And after I succeeded, it was just this realization that I had this understanding that came through living through this and living through it to come out the other side and be able to speak into it. And so it was almost like I had to tell the story. I had to write the book. It was such a strong knowing and even as I was writing it, the process that I went through and feeling into it. And then the research we did. Nobody has ever written a book from the wife's perspective about human trafficking not once. And when I learned that it was, well, I have to. People need to understand there's so much more to this than the victims and the perpetrators and I don't want to take away from their stories but from the wife's perspective, somebody who truly did not know what was going on and to then be faced with it, I felt like a different type of victim and I needed to speak into that experience for others to both see themselves as well as to understand how much more complex this is so the story itself.
Speaker 1:Well, are there any um, before we get into the story, uh, any fictional stuff just for drama, or is it all pure?
Speaker 2:straight. It is all exactly as it, as it happened, okay.
Speaker 1:All right, so the story we're not giving away too much of the book. What happened, Um, how did it happen? I mean, it's uh, it's an amazing story.
Speaker 2:So, uh, back in 2016, I was a full-time stay at home mom. My kids were one, four and five almost six, and I'd been married six years. My husband was. He worked for a credit card processing company and traveled for work. He was in internet security and my life was what I thought was normal. Right, I mean, he worked too much, we didn't spend as much time together as I wanted, but I had three young kids. That was my life and his life was providing the financial means.
Speaker 2:And you know, there certainly was other challenges, but we didn't really fight and mostly we didn't discuss anything that would cause a fight. But at the time that was a look at us doing so well. And one night he just doesn't come home from work just I, and that was unusual. He was late all the time. He didn't come home after bedtime regularly, but never not come home. And you know I'm calling his phone and it starts going straight to voicemail.
Speaker 2:And because he worked so often long hours and often ignored my phone calls, I was like, whatever he'll show up when he shows, I'm going to bed. And I went to bed and I woke up at 2 am and he wasn't there, and at 5 am he still wasn't there and this was when I realized something had happened and my mind is spinning and crazy stories and everything. And at 5 am, I called non-emergency dispatch and they transferred me to the jail, where I learned that he in fact was there and he had been arrested for attempted human trafficking with a $250,000 bond. Yeah, and so that was the beginning of what turned into the next four years of uncovering and learning and processing everything that I didn't know uncovering and learning and processing everything that I didn't know.
Speaker 1:So the first, I mean obviously it's like kaboom, you know, dui, drugs or something. It's almost I'm not that that's acceptable, but it's like okay, but this is like next level what you know. So the first, I mean you have kids the first day, the next day, you know the first couple of days. How stressful, psychotic was that.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. I mean I, there was no sleeping, I was in a full panic response. My mind is racing, I don't. I don't even know what the charge really means. Right, we have this picture in our heads of shipping containers and borders and I'm wearing this like small little mountain top, huh, you know. And then I'm like trying to build a story around. Is he actually dead? And somebody stole his wallet? And they're arrested and, like you know, you're trying to. It makes so no sense to anything. And then the fear kicks in. If they think he's involved, are they gonna think I'm involved? Because it makes no sense, right? So my mind is doing all these crazy stories and, at the same time, everything in me.
Speaker 2:I'm a very loyal and action-oriented person, so it's okay. He doesn't belong in jail. Something is wrong. I have to fix it. I have to help, I have to. That's my reaction, is not to believe it's true. Is this? There's some other explanation, something is wrong. I have to, I have to take action. So, you know, at 5am, when I learned that's where he is, I'm calling bail bondsman. So I'm calling lawyers. Nobody's answering me at 5am, but I'm still calling. I'm leaving messages.
Speaker 2:You know, somebody will call me back in the morning and and the bail bondsman's actually do answer the phone at 5am and they tell you because they want your business, and the lawyer actually calls me back at 7am, and so there are people working early hours, especially in the criminal world, and you know, and I start to slowly understand how the process works, but I still don't have any information. And the bail bondsman actually goes and checks on him and because I don't even think it's him in jail, I'm not even sure about that. You know right. So it's just so. Much is this impossibility.
Speaker 2:Little by little I start to get pieces, and yet it actually takes almost four years for me to get the full story, because he wasn't willing to tell me the full story. As well as you know the when police are building a case, the thing people don't realize is family members don't get the evidence. They're building a case, they're actually trying to get more evidence from you, and so I I don't actually get the full details until many years later any criminal, any criminal history in the past none husband, nope, no nothing wild man type of thing, nope, I mean he was.
Speaker 2:As you know, he was the nerdy guy like it. Just it made zero sense. I mean, he told me when we were got together I was the fourth person he had ever been with and I was wife number three. So, like I had built this story, he's not a guy who dates, he doesn doesn't go to bars, he doesn't, he doesn't do any of that Like, not even in the supposedly like normal male way, and so just so far around away from who I knew him to be and who I knew myself to be, the life that we lived, the cognitive dissonance and believing there was any possibility of this, was really, really intense.
Speaker 1:Now I mean fast forward, looking back, were there any signs that you said like, oh, wait a minute, he wasn't as nice as I thought? You know, yes, red flags 100%. There you go.
Speaker 2:Yes, so big red flags. When I met him I was 18. He was nine years older than I was and he was deeply interested in my teenage promiscuity, my pictures of me as a teenager. He also was married to wife number two and I was the other woman for a year Right, I was 19 and naive was the other woman for a year. Right, I was 19 and naive and believed the stories that he said.
Speaker 2:He also, as the relationship progressed, wanted me to invite other men into the bedroom. He wanted to watch me do different things. He had all of these sort of fantasies that he would test to see if I would play out because I had such a teenage crazy time and he would actually make me feel guilty if I didn't want to do those things. Because I didn't. That was not the relationship that we had and I didn't want to bring that energy into this relationship and I didn't love him enough. And so huge, huge red flags.
Speaker 2:But 19, 20 year old me didn't see it that way because at 19 and 20, I wasn't even processing what had happened to me as a teenager.
Speaker 2:I wasn't refused to be a victim. I refused to look at any of it as abuse or rape or statutory anything, even though at 15, 16, these were older men. So I refused to acknowledge my own past and, if anything, I romanticized it, which invited him to talk about it, be excited by it and everything else. And so, looking back, obviously, as I processed and healed in different ways, I can see how the teenage version of me was was, in a lot of ways, still attracting that type of man, and once I, once we did officially get together and I got married and had children I was no longer the one he could share those things with, and so I built a new story that it was. It was a different relationship and we grow, grew up more and now we're a family, and and I didn't realize that he then still needed an escape from that and that he continued to go down even darker paths.
Speaker 1:How about family and friends when it was going on? Did they bail or did they support what happened there?
Speaker 2:So his family deeply supported. His family really wanted me to stay around. This is not him and if anything really kind of leaned into, he needed me in order to stay grounded and okay. And so I was so attached to the family unit and the belief and identity that that carried, and so his family was very connected to that. My family was much more, yeah, sure and really treading carefully.
Speaker 2:My mom was a marriage and family therapist and she was, uh, worked in a lot of treat like addiction treatment centers and she was much more aware of the various methods and modalities and some of the ways people lie and manipulate, and she tried very hard not to show her judgment, but I could feel it and I just actually pushed her away for a long time.
Speaker 2:Friends were cautious, they were curious and also, you know, I think there was their own level of shock and cognitive dissonance taking place and they were more concerned about me and supporting me and my young children and at the same time recognized that there was so much they likely didn't know and so they really kind of kept a cautious distance and many of them later completely cut off any connection to him and if I was going to stay with him, then I was also kind of cut off. But later, as we separated, you know, they kind of came back around and shared how confused in a lot of ways they were as well there was. There was only one other person who chose to believe like I did for as long as I did.
Speaker 1:Now your kids at the time were in school or not.
Speaker 2:No, they were well, they were young. So the one-year-old wasn't in school, the four and five-year-old were in, like preschool kindergarten.
Speaker 1:And reaction from the other parents. The school, yeah, so the school was certainly more worried.
Speaker 2:You know there was articles in the paper. This was public knowledge and so the school was. You know we had to have the conversation. We're following the bond he can't be around schools, he can't be around other kids, like all of that going on. And the school was supportive of the children. Thankfully they were very. You know, our, our, their goal was to be the safe place for kids, which I appreciated, and I'm sure they fielded other parent things, but I was the one who dropped them off and picked them up and did all of that and so I think, as long as he stayed away, the other parents I didn't really hear any more from any parents directly and the school kind of fielded, you know, ensuring that the kids were safe and that they were following all of the protocols and things like that.
Speaker 1:Now, approximately how long down the road did the kids grab? Well, the one year old, I guess it took a while, but did they grasp what happened?
Speaker 2:So they were not told what happened until after we like four years later he refused was one of the big contentious points in therapy, because I put the kids in therapy because there was a lot going on and at that age it's play therapy. It's a different, it's some talk therapy the kids are.
Speaker 2:They don't have quite the intellectual or developmental understanding and the agreement was that he was going to come up with an age appropriate way to speak about this to them, and so all they knew was daddy was in trouble and that he had these roles. That's all they knew was daddy was in trouble and that he had these roles. That's all they knew, and he continued to refuse to disclose in the way that we agreed that he would, and it was something that I ended up having to do once I got full custody, four years later.
Speaker 1:Did you blame yourself at any time? I mean I know it sounds weird because you're not doing it, but yeah, but it's actually a normal thing to blame yourself at any time.
Speaker 2:I mean, I know it sounds weird because you're not doing it but yeah, but it's actually a normal thing to blame yourself. Unfortunately, I didn't blame myself for for not being like a good enough wife. I think some people might've gone there. You know, I didn't. I didn't blame myself there. I later blamed myself for not seeing what I didn't see and looking back and not ignoring the red flags, for bailing him out of jail for, uh, you know, excusing behaviors, for staying in a relationship and pretending everything was totally fine. You know, I I blamed myself later for that, for more of the things that I didn't do rather than, um, what I did do as far as the relationship was concerned.
Speaker 1:How long was it going on? I mean, you don't know immediately, but how long was he doing this for?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean like so what he told me is that he had been soliciting adults since his like, since he was 20 and so he's, you know, almost 40 at the time, so 20 years. He told me that he stopped for a period of time when I, when we got together, and that it started back up when my youngest or my oldest, I should say was six months old, and so there's a couple year window where he claims it's not happening and all he would admit to was soliciting adults. He would never actually admit to the children, and yet he was arrested for trying to purchase an 11 and 14 year old and yet he was arrested for trying to purchase an 11 and 14 year old.
Speaker 1:So I mean, just to be clear, you know, you hear human, um, yes, trafficking. So was he finding kids and giving them to someone else that took them to another country or something like you know, like so, or was he actually involved sexually?
Speaker 2:what he is involved sexually, when you're a party to human trafficking, when you are purchasing children who cannot consent, who cannot be owned, and when you're taking possession of children, you are a participant of and a party to human trafficking. And so I, I don't have reason to believe. Now I also don't know what, I don't know that he like sold, resold them off. I, I, I don't know about that, I don't know how deeply it got. It's statistically impossible for this to be the first time, even though he claimed that. Uh, but I do know that he was sexually participating with people who were not there of their own free will.
Speaker 2:And this was in your area, I mean where you live currently Well, not anymore, but yes where we lived at the time, which was a small town in Colorado. He told me a lot of it also happened in Cincinnati, where he traveled for work quite regularly.
Speaker 1:Geez.
Speaker 2:Wow, where is he now, as far as I I know he's exactly where he was.
Speaker 1:I have had no contact in almost five years now. No, I mean, is he in jail?
Speaker 2:no, no, no, no, no, no. So this is a thing people don't realize. In privileged white america, men do not go to prison for trying to purchase children, that's outrageous Not upper middle class white men, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:How the hell does that work?
Speaker 2:He spent two days in jail in the beginning and later he was given a plea deal and the plea deal pled down to attempted solicitation of a minor which you still think would come with jail time, but it didn't.
Speaker 2:It was four years of probation, so he received a plea deal. The goal for most of, unfortunately, the goal that the prosecution and the DA's office is, is to get them in what they believe is treatment and what they believe is actually rehabilitating and so, and even talking to his lawyers, the most people get for these crimes is 30 to 60 days.
Speaker 1:Well, what about the victims? Did anyone come forward and say hey, this guy did this, that and the other thing.
Speaker 2:So nobody came forward that we know the victims in this particular case were hypothetical victims. They were not real children and so it was a sting operation that the FBI and local police department put on.
Speaker 2:And so the and they actually do these quite often. For this, the stings, you know, set these up, and they, you know, post an ad, and people respond to the ad and the, the charges, depending on how, how far they go through with and he actually walked away from it. He didn't complete the transaction because they did things outside of the normal operating procedure you don't pay first and so he actually left, and he knew all of the protocol and he knew all of the language, and they didn't follow the protocol, and because there was no actual children to hand over. Because there was no actual children to hand over, and the thing about this, though, is they're trying to get them off the street, they're trying to get them in treatment, but what ends up happening is they actually end up with no consequences.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. I mean unbelievable.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and well, here's another one for you. In the state of Colorado, the constitutional right to parent is not removed for sex offenders, and so he had his full constitutional rights to his own children, which means when he pled guilty to attempted solicitation of a minor, he was able to move back into the home and have unrestricted access to his children, not to other children. He had rules and restrictions on schools and other things.
Speaker 1:I was going to say is he listed as an offender?
Speaker 2:He is listed as a sex offender?
Speaker 1:Yes, Wherever he goes.
Speaker 2:Yes, that will continue with him for up to potentially he could actually in Colorado you can apply to get off the offender list after 10 years, but even more so. What that meant is once I started to wake up and see more of the truth. I then had a custody fight in front of me because the criminal case was not relevant in the family court case.
Speaker 1:Wow, all right. So yeah, you fast. I mean I'm sure there's other tidbits in the book that are kind of blew through it. Um, that's the gist of it, and he's just out there and you're doing your thing, hopefully in a happy way, and the children good.
Speaker 2:The children are good. So today they're 10, 12 and 14, so it's been with you a lot with and they're with me a hundred percent. Uh, in 2020, I received full custody and he has had no contact with them or me, and I'm coming up on five years.
Speaker 1:Now in the book, are you using fictitious names or Only?
Speaker 2:for I use his name and everybody else's names are changed. He, his crime, is public record as well as so is our divorce, and so it felt weird to both cite newspaper articles and not have his real name in there.
Speaker 1:Right. So what is the Golden Haven Foundation?
Speaker 2:Yes, so that is a 5013C that I started and truly, to be completely transparent, still starting and working towards understanding how to fund nonprofits. But the biggest thing that I took away that is missing from the system is the privilege it takes to fight for safety for yourself and your children in abusive situations with family court, and the reality that so many people end up sharing custody with their abusers and their children's abusers and this happens every day all over the world that people with whoever has money is going to be more likely to succeed in a family court case because you don't get a you don't even get a public defender in a family court case, and when the situations of domestic violence and abuse sexual abuse case, and when the situations of domestic violence and abuse, sexual abuse, you still have to go through the process, and it is actually the victim's job to educate the judge and jury if there is one, on trauma and trauma bonding, and so the foundation's goal is to both help people come to the mental and emotional place where they actually can have the fight. Because it wasn't the money that succeeded in my case. Money got me in the door, but I actually had to completely change my beliefs inside in order to have the energy to have this fight and to succeed, and so the foundation's goal is to both be educating as well as get to the point where we can offer cash grants to help pay for legal fees, because that doesn't exist today. There's women's shelters, there's food, insecurity places, but nobody is helping with the legal battle.
Speaker 2:And I will say something that people don't realize is that human trafficking exists in every single town in this country, and people do not have any idea how prevalent it is. The reality that nobody knows is that it is under so many. It seems like these are just family towns or things like that, but it is everywhere, and you likely know somebody who is both who is a participant and or a victim of this and you know, the sex industry is everywhere and this, unfortunately, is something that we think is mostly in other countries and we think it's this foreign problem.
Speaker 2:But the opposite is true.
Speaker 1:Can't judge a book by its cover, so to speak. I mean, yeah, man, I mean, what is it? I saw this in research an energy healer yeah.
Speaker 2:So after I got out of the situation, um, it was it. Not only was this a realization of you know the what I needed to do, what this process was, but it was actually a very spiritual awakening as well. It was a really spiritual moment of realizing the power that I held and the ways that I could not just manifest but come to an entirely different way of being, because there was a very long period of time during the custody hearing that I was very likely going to end up sharing custody with a man who was already beginning to sexually groom his own children and I couldn't proving that. Because grooming nothing quite happens. We're just crossing boundaries, little by little, we're moving those lines and in family court, you have to prove something already bad enough has happened that you can prove in order to justify taking away rights. And so I was really like the writing was on the wall that this was just going to continue.
Speaker 2:And something happened within me that changed that, and it was an internal shift where I realized that I wasn't being accountable for my part in not seeing what was in front of me, on choosing this, on not wanting to be in this situation, on keeping any connection to their father, because I still wanted to believe that there was another explanation.
Speaker 2:And not being accountable to those pieces was, in a lot of ways, what kept this situation stuck.
Speaker 2:And when I flipped that and switched it, just like weeks later, everything was different and evidence was different and I listened to things differently. And so it was this big kind of awakening and understanding and the power that I held in these situations and that we all hold in. Despite being victims, we still have the power. Right, it's not our fault what happens to us, but it is our responsibility to change and to come out of it. And so that sort of awakening and understanding sent me on a very spiritual journey to understand trauma on a deeper level, and so to understand trauma not just on a physical level but on a mental and emotional and spiritual level, and the way that these patterns repeat in families, the way these patterns repeat in the world, to get my hands on, to understand you know, some people call it the quantum field, some people call it, you know, just energy and frequency, but the idea that we can connect to more dimensions of our experience, to help rewrite our experience.
Speaker 1:Excellent. I mean they had a sting operation. They had a sting operation, they caught him. But, because he wasn't actually caught with the person he gets off. I mean, there's more to it than that.
Speaker 2:There's more to it than that.
Speaker 1:If they burst into a room and it's going on that's got to be.
Speaker 2:They're a lot likely to plea them out right. There's a lot more evidence and at the same time, there was multiple defendants in this particular case and every one of them were offered a plea deal. They don't actually want to try these cases.
Speaker 1:Why not?
Speaker 2:the trial was the one that went to federal court because that particular defendant crossed state lines, and so they crossed state lines, which meant it wasn't in the state court, and the federal side has a very different way of approaching these crimes actually and are much more serious. But anybody this happens to and it stays in state court 90% of the time or more. They get plea deals and it is a minimal amount of jail time. Now you do TED Talk also, correct?
Speaker 1:yes, I have given a ted talk. Yes, okay, just one, or just one so far at least.
Speaker 2:I mean same subject obviously yeah, the title is the healing power of storytelling. But I tell my story yeah, I watch.
Speaker 1:It's great. You did a great great job. Thank you. I don't even know if I should say that I think it's a movie as far as the story. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Not that.
Speaker 1:I want to bring light to it, but the way they get off of it is like I think it's a movie that could be made easily with the storyline.
Speaker 2:Yes, there is going to be a documentary this year. That is started. But, um, if somebody wants to buy the movie rights, come talk to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think it'd be. Let me ask you this, uh, just on a light moment. Let's say, you know Hollywood comes. Hey, amanda, you know who would you like to star as you in the movie?
Speaker 2:That's a great question in the movie. That's a great question, um, I don't know, maybe like a, like a reese witherspoon or like a you know somebody, somebody who has you know, can play the play the. The wife that you know is. I used to be very confident and very, you know, different. I was very full of life. I would need to be somebody who could do that and also could play.
Speaker 1:How much darkness I was living with and didn't see so did the light get sucked out of you after this? Obviously?
Speaker 2:before that before I had no idea how much the light was sucked out of me being married to him I had.
Speaker 1:I couldn't see it but he wasn't, but he wasn't a bad guy. I mean, I don't want to say he wasn't a bad guy, but you didn't see.
Speaker 2:No, there was no physical abuse, but there was a ton, a ton of mental and emotional.
Speaker 1:Verbal screaming.
Speaker 2:No screaming, but screaming is not always as abusive as silence and refusing to come home and not answering your phone for hours. And then, when you say that I would like to spend time as a family, being told that your feelings are not okay. And how dare you imply that I'm not doing everything I can and withholding any attention or affection for years, while also making me feel like I wasn't participating financially and I wasn't doing enough and the house wasn't clean enough. Those things grade on you and I wasn't allowed to make decisions at all. I wasn't allowed to make decisions about the house. I wasn't allowed to make decisions about the really other than the day-to-day.
Speaker 1:Was he gaslighting without you knowing it?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, and I didn't believe my own mind anymore. I didn't believe my reality, and even after he was arrested, we got to the point where he wanted to be on the phone 24-7. I couldn't have a thought without him in my ear, and it's similar to what kidnapping victims go through with Stockholm Syndrome, and my entire identity and reality was shaped by somebody else who was doing horrible things, and yet I didn't know how to exist without this person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, so the I'll wait for the movie, of course. Now, nowadays, amazon seems to be the place to go for a book. Are there any other avenues for you to, or for anyone to, grab the book?
Speaker 2:So Amazon has it? Yes, I believe it's also got extended distribution through Amazon. So there are, you know, I think Barnes and Nobles can have it and things like that. I there's some local bookstores here in Oregon today that have it.
Speaker 1:Any audio version.
Speaker 2:Yes, I recorded the audio version. It is there. A lot of people like a lot of ball um, and there's both kindle and paperback if people prefer that nice, nice.
Speaker 1:Let's jump outside the uh seriousness of the podcast at the moment. Or subject, I should say um, before we wrap up, I have a little segment called this or that. It's just a preference thing to get to know. Amanda, you know readers, what have you? It's a fun thing. So, um, for instance, preference, now, this is just preference, reading or writing reading pizza or pasta pizza, that's not good. You need pasta. No, I like both.
Speaker 1:I just a lot of people, a lot of people pick pizza and I'm like god I love pots, I mean, I love both, but pasta being italian is like it's just yeah anyway um city or country city dog or cat cat? No, I have two yeah, don't, don't tell my dog, but um, this could be movies or what have you, but fiction or non-fiction uh, I would say fiction for movies, but non-fiction for books okay, that's a good answer. Uh, would you rather travel back in time and I don't mean your time, like I'm just saying, you know back to whatever, or back in time or into the future?
Speaker 1:future for sure all right, snow or sand sand would you rather find a magic lamp or a flying carpet?
Speaker 2:flying carpet really, because I'm thinking if you have a magic lamp or a flying carpet Flying, carpet.
Speaker 1:Really yes, Because I'm thinking if you have a magic lamp, you could just wish for a magic carpet.
Speaker 2:That's fair but I feel like most wishes you can create in a different version, but flying.
Speaker 1:That would be cool.
Speaker 2:That would be cool.
Speaker 1:All right. Lunch date or dinner date Dinner All right. Last date or dinner date Dinner. All right, last one Movies or TV.
Speaker 2:Movies.
Speaker 1:I'm ready for the movies. Now so, as you mentioned Amazon, et cetera, you can get the book. I mean, I think it's a must read. I read some of it because you can only get a portion of it. A portion of it, uh uh online and uh, and I watched the Ted talk and all that I mean it's, it's just a fact, it sucks you in. It's like come on, let's you know, let's see what's going to happen here, um the most common review is I couldn't put it down.
Speaker 1:There you go, there you go, that's, that's the, that's the ad. I couldn't put it down, but I appreciate you coming on. I really do Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. This has been an Unmuted Podcast with Papa Mutes.
