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Anne Montgomery: Breaking Barriers in Journalism and Unveiling Forgotten Heroes
Trailblazer Anne Montgomery joins Papamutes to share her remarkable journey from breaking barriers in sports journalism to uncovering forgotten stories of World War II servicemen. Her latest novel, "Your Forgotten Sons," offers a poignant exploration of history inspired by letters over seven decades old. Discover how Sergeant Bud Richardville's role in the Graves Registration Service during WWII and his personal life serve as a tribute to unsung heroes. Anne's storytelling prowess breathes life into historical fiction, inviting listeners to reflect on the sacrifices of those who often go unnoticed.
Anne's candid recounting of her career highlights the resilience required to succeed in a male-dominated industry. From high school hurdles to her groundbreaking work at ESPN, Anne's experiences underscore the importance of perseverance and creativity. She shares anecdotes of athletes like Manute Bol and Jim Abbott, whose kindness and determination impacted her journey. Anne's insights into the evolving media landscape reveal the challenges and triumphs of pioneering women in broadcasting, offering inspiration to the next generation.
Join us for an engaging conversation with Anne Montgomery, a storyteller who seamlessly blends journalism with historical fiction.
Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Castro, Google Podcasts or wherever you stream your podcasts.
Welcome to Papamutes everybody. Today, my guest is Anne Montgomery. Anne has worked as a television sportscaster, newspaper and magazine writer, teacher and author. Her latest novel, your Forgotten Sons, is available now wherever you buy your books. Novel your Forgotten Sons is available now wherever you buy your books. Anne's TV work has taken her to television stations in Columbus, georgia, rochester, new York, phoenix, arizona and ESPN in Bristol, Connecticut, where she anchored the Emmy award-winning SportsCenter. Anne finished her on-camera broadcasting career with a two-year stint as the studio host for the NBA's Phoenix Suns. Thrilled to have her on, and welcome to Papamutes.
Anne Montgomery:Well, thank you for inviting me. I'm glad to be here.
Papamutes:I mentioned in the opening. Excuse me, while I get rid of this stuff off camera. So I mentioned you know your background in broadcasting etc. But before we get to that, I want to jump to your Forgotten Sons book, which I've read. Some of that's online, you know you can only read so much. How did that come about? I know what it's about, but just for the listeners how did your Forgotten Sons come about? Because it's very fascinating.
Anne Montgomery:Your Forgotten Sons is quite a departure from the novels I normally write. I write about Arizona and I write about. I'm a news junkie. I still read the newspaper every day and watch the news, even though it makes me crazy. And so I get stories from things I read and I become interested in them. So I write novels around real life and real life situations.
Anne Montgomery:But in this case this was totally different. I had a dear friend who worked at the first TV station I worked at in Columbus, georgia, and Regina called me one day and she said I have to have a surgery on my spine. She said there's a chance I might be paralyzed from the waist down and I need you to come to Baltimore, to Johns Hopkins Hospital, to be my healthcare power of attorney. And I said, of course, you know she was my best friend. And so I flew there. And the night before the surgery she hands me the Ziploc bag full of 75 year old letters and she said whatever happens to me, promise me that you'll tell Bud's story. And of course I was like I wanted her to feel better. I'm like, yes, of course I'll write a book about Bud. And then, course, she had the surgery. She had a tumor around her spinal cord. They removed it. She walked out of the hospital and I had made this promise that I would write about this man who served in the Graves Registration Service in World War II.
Anne Montgomery:Now most people don't know what that means, but the Graves Registration Service, those are the guys who had to locate, identify and bury the dead. Now when you read books and you see movies, we see battles and guys shooting each other and planes falling from the skies, but we don't see what happens next, because at some point someone has to pick up the pieces. And the graves registration men were those people. And if you think about D-Day and Bud Richardville was at Normandy 10,000 people died, both allies and Germans, that day. Well, they couldn't leave those bodies there. The allies funneled 186,000 servicemen through that area. You had to pick the pieces up because, quite honestly, it's a health hazard, but it's also a morale problem. You can't have these young men coming off going. Oh my God, their body's everywhere.
Anne Montgomery:So his job was to locate, identify and bury the dead and it was something most of these men never spoke about. They were embarrassed. Most of them said we want to go and, you know, be real soldiers. And it was horrible. Now people go to Normandy today and there's a magnificently beautiful, graceful cemetery there, as there are in 26 nations worldwide where American servicemen and women are buried, and Bud and his men built that. They built those cemeteries, those beautiful, graceful, honorable places that these service people are buried today. So I wrote a book about who he was and how did I learn that the letters he sent home and the title, by the way, is your Forgotten Sons His last letter home to his mother was signed your Forgotten Son.
Papamutes:Wow.
Anne Montgomery:And Regina and I decided that all those people have been forgotten. You don't see them in movies or books, nobody wants to talk about them, so we dedicated it to all of them.
Papamutes:What now? What's his name?
Anne Montgomery:Sergeant Bud Richardville. He was a poor kid who grew up in Vincennes, Indiana, depression era. Not much of an education, but a good guy by all accounts, someone everybody liked. He was a bit of a rake. The women liked him and there's also a couple of love stories in this. I don't know. He married a woman he barely knew to like two weeks before he shipped out, and that was a common problem.
Anne Montgomery:Young soldiers did that. We're not sure why, maybe they're worried they're going to die or whatever but Bud was 28. So he was older because he worked in the paper mills in Michigan and the paper mills were required. I mean, they were one of those industries that was required by the military. So he was deferred till he was older and then at 28, he was drafted and he was immediately made a sergeant. I think because all the guys he was older and then at 28, he was drafted and he was immediately made a sergeant. I think because all the guys he was serving with were very young. I mean guys 10 years younger were like a different generation. So he became a sergeant right away and the story follows his marriage, which was hugely crazy.
Anne Montgomery:And then also there were quiet family rumors that there was another woman in Europe at the time, during the war. So I took now understand this is inspired by a true story, which is very different than is based on a true story. Based means we know exactly what happened, we know what people said. It was documented, we know who his friends were. We know everything, the truth of all it. This is not that this is inspired. It's inspired by his letters, which means I took literary license, I created friends for him. I created maybe who a woman might've been that he met in Europe. His wife we know some about, but I don't want to share too much about that because it's a very weird story. Share too much about that because it's a very weird story. So it is Bud's story and it was very difficult to write because it is necessarily gruesome, as you can imagine in some parts.
Anne Montgomery:The graves registration guys followed all the big battles. He was at the Battle of the Bulge, which the deadliest battle in the history of the war, I think, and they also liberated the death camps. So those were the guys that had to go in and straighten that up. So it was an impossible job and they never got any credit for it and I'm very delighted that this past summer in Vincennes, indiana, we held a memorial service for Bud. He remains in Europe. He's buried in Epinol, france, buried by his same guys that he worked with. And we had a service for him and they had a proclamation that it was Bud Richardville Day and Vincennes and they honored his service. And that had never happened before and it wasn't just gathering Allied dead, it was German dead.
Anne Montgomery:I'll give, I'll give you an example, and you know I don't want to scare people away, but there are some gruesome parts here. Bottom line is they there was this city called Brest, france, and the, the Allied that was a submarine base there and and the, the Germans took the town over to put their submarines there so they could control the North Sea and the channel. And the Americans came in and said look, we're going to bomb this, we're going to bomb this. Please, everybody leave. Okay.
Anne Montgomery:And the French didn't leave. Instead, they had caverns underneath the town and they set up a hospital and they set up beds, and so when the bombing began, they all went underground. Problem was, there was a fire and the Germans even went down there to escape and we basically bombed it to dust. And so weeks and weeks later some of our graves registration men were sent there to go clean out the tunnels Six weeks, two months after the burning, and there were bodies like three deep. There were babies in mother's arms and the French people said we want you to go in and take out the Germans, and then we're going to seal it up as a mass grave. And our guys had to go down there and figure out who in the dark, who, to figure out who was German, and bury them in a mass grave.
Anne Montgomery:And you're probably going to say how do I know this? Because Bud did not write about these things. Most soldiers did not write about what they were doing because they were censors and besides that, none of these guys wanted to admit what they were doing. They were embarrassed by it. But I found one book called Crosses in the Winds that was written by a Lieutenant Colonel, joseph Shoman, who was a captain in the Graves Registration Service for 18 months during World War II and he wrote about the things they actually did. And I got a copy of that book and I read it and I used Shoman's memories and put Bud in those places.
Anne Montgomery:Could Bud have been at Brest, france? Could he have been at Dachau. Could he? You know, yes, he could have been in any of those places, because these guys were shared. You know they said okay, we just had this huge battle, send 100 guys to you know whatever town, and that was their job. We send them home. We send them home right away, you know, in 48 hours or however quickly. Back then you just couldn't do it in a world war. You just there was no way to send guys home, and so they were buried and often exhumed several times and reburied when, after Normandy, they had to build a grave site right up by the beaches and then they had to go back a long time later, exhume the bodies and put them in the, in the grave in the in the um, where they're buried today at Normandy.
Papamutes:So yeah, it was a difficult book.
Anne Montgomery:I can't tell you it was easy, um, but it it's. It's Bud's story too. It's. It's about him as a human being. So I don't want people to be too scared away because it's gruesome. But I felt if I didn't tell the honest truth, I couldn't candy coat it. You know it would. It would not be paying homage to those men. But I have yet to find a person that most people go. Well, I never thought about where the bodies went, because we don't, we don't want to, and and that's what's so sad and these men didn't have a choice, they didn't get to, they didn't. Nobody volunteered for this.
Anne Montgomery:Um, and and there, bud lived right next to a railroad track and said this past summer I got to go to his home that's still standing and, uh, it's like eight feet from a railroad track and as a young boy he was often asked to come and get.
Anne Montgomery:In those days people would leap on the moving trains as they moved through town because, you know, people didn't have cars or whatever, and that's how they traveled. And people are always falling off and getting killed. And bud, as a teenager, would be asked to go and pick up the bodies off the train track. And I think what happened is when he went to boot camp. You know they'll say, well, what do you do? And a guy, I'm a cook, and so they make you a cook and he might've been asked how he felt about bodies and he might've said, oh, it's okay, I've seen a whole bunch of them because I picked them up as a kid off the railroad track. He also worked the time, you know, out in the rivers on the logs and he might have just casually said it was not a big deal to him and that's how he got there.
Papamutes:Now I'm assuming that there's still this organization within the military. I mean, someone still has to do that, right.
Anne Montgomery:Yeah, it's called. Today it's called mortuary services, I think it changed leading into Vietnam. But again, it's entirely different today because the bodies get sent home quickly, but someone's got to go out there, exactly when you think about Vietnam and a lot of these guys, after victory in Europe they got shipped out to the Philippines and it's bad enough dealing with bodies when it's cold, like the Battle of the Bulge, when it's freezing, but now go to the jungles and try to find people and, yeah, a horrendously horrible job and they still have it. Mortuary services. Somebody's got to pick up the dead. How else will people know that their loved one is dead if we don't recover the bodies? This is not new. This is since the beginning of war, you know, and in our revolutionary war and our civil war, people were doing this, but no one ever talked about it.
Papamutes:So moving on to a more pleasant beginning, no it's fine. As I mentioned, you worked on different areas in sports television broadcasting. How'd you get into television broadcasting?
Anne Montgomery:70 in March.
Anne Montgomery:So the bottom line is this was before women did this sort of thing. I didn't realize it was a strange job. I mean, when I was in high school I was in something called the broadcast crew in New Jersey and we had a class where we did a half hour show every morning during homeroom. We played music, we did news, we did announcements, and I was an ice skater growing up and I knew everybody in the hockey team because I did stats for them. And one of the hockey players came up and said would you do this announcement this morning? And I said sure.
Anne Montgomery:And I went to class and I decided because we usually lumped all the stories together, I pulled all the sports stories out of the basket and the guys went crazy. They said you can't read sports, you're a girl. The guys went crazy. They said you can't read sports, you're a girl. And and five minutes before the show's supposed to start, the teacher comes in and he goes what's the matter? He said Annie wants to read sports. He said if Annie wants to read sports, read the sports, go ahead, leave her alone, just go do it. And I read the sports that morning and I thought that was pretty cool and just to piss the guys off.
Anne Montgomery:I went in the next day and I picked up all the sports stories again and they were offended and so when I went on, they gave me theme music which was Mission Impossible, and then they started calling me Big Ann. Here's Big Ann with the sports, and they thought that that would offend me, but I loved it. So I spent my senior year being. Even in my high school yearbook it says this is your local sportscaster under my picture. And so my mother marched up to me and said so you got to go to college. We got to pick a school. What do you want to be? And I said I want to be a sportscaster. She said don't be ridiculous, I'm trying to have a serious conversation with you.
Anne Montgomery:I said well, mom, that's what I want to be and she's. Everybody told me no, I could never be that thing. Went to college, went to Miami of Ohio. They said you will never be a sportscaster, you're a woman. And yet my senior year they they allowed me to co-host a sports TV show with a guy and I went great, I'm finally going to get a shot. Well, the football coach, the basketball coach and the baseball coach all refused to speak to me. They would not be interviewed by me. They refused, and so I went. Well, what am I supposed to do now? And people think don't understand this. They look at me like, well, there are women in sports, not then, there weren't any. They look at me like, well, there are women in sports, not then there weren't any.
Papamutes:This was 1976, 77,. I guess I remember I mean 70s. I actually grew up in Pittsburgh. There were some women on TV yes, I can see her face now and it was Phyllis George.
Anne Montgomery:Yes, exactly, phyllis George was Miss America.
Anne Montgomery:Yes exactly, and it wasn't her fault, and they would put her in a fur coat and she'd stand on the sidelines and interview the coach's wife Exactly right. So it wasn't because she knew about sports, it was because she was a stunningly beautiful woman standing on the sidelines. They were not being real open minded here. So when I was in college what I realized was there are other teams in a college. We had archery and swimming and gymnastics and hockey and all these other teams that no one paid a bit of attention to. So I went to all those teams and they were thrilled. They didn't care that I was a woman, they were delighted to get coverage.
Anne Montgomery:So when I graduated I couldn't get a job anywhere. I went to Washington DC and worked in a bar in Georgetown with great fun it was the 80s after all and I just kind of two years went by and I couldn't get a job. So I realized that I didn't know enough. So I decided to become a certified amateur official in the five main team spectator sports football, baseball, ice hockey, soccer and basketball. I decided I would do that for five years and that I would know the games by then and that some forward thinking news director would give me a job, and that's exactly what happened, and I was very fortunate that my first TV partner was a wonderful guy who who wasn't offended by the fact maybe he was offended by the fact that I got the sports director job above him but he taught me what, what I needed to do.
Anne Montgomery:I made a lot of horrible mistakes and I've learned that it's really good to be a thousand miles away from anyone you know when you're on television, because it's better if everybody's a stranger. So but that I'd since then I you know. Then I worked at four other TV stations, um, until I was pushing 40, when I was no longer pretty enough to be on camera, because that's what happens to women.
Papamutes:Well, how did the ESPN gig come about? Cause that's a pretty big deal, right, I mean.
Anne Montgomery:Well, it was I. I, you know. I worked in Columbus, Georgia. I worked in Rochester, New York. Then I went to Phoenix. I was in Phoenix two years and had a great news director, by the way, because I came and they, the Arizona Cardinals, moved here right when I got here and he made me their beat reporter, which was amazing. That meant I traveled with the team, I covered them every day and then we were talking 1988. Actually they came here. I guess, yeah, their first season would have been 88. So I was very fortunate and I got to cover all kinds of sports here, which was great. And I got a call from my agent one day and he said one of the guys at ESPN saw you on the air and they want to hire you. It was that simple.
Papamutes:Wow, and that was what 1988, you say.
Anne Montgomery:I went there in 90. So they actually hired me end of 89. And I was there two years. Basically, it was no fun at all, none, no, they really they hired women because they felt they had to. You know, it was that you have to give women a chance, you have to have diversity, and they don't want to do that. I mean no, and it really I mean. I'll give you some examples. Wow, are you a baseball fan?
Papamutes:Yeah, I mean, I love all sports.
Anne Montgomery:Okay, so I was an umpire for 25 years, right, and I worked all levels of. I was an amateur official, but you know my favorite game was I worked the San Francisco Giants and the Phoenix Firebirds. You know I have my lineup card with Dusty Baker and Barry Bonds and you know. So I mean I'm a good umpire and I'm on the air one night live in SportsCenter. If you're lucky, you get to see all your highlights before you go on.
Anne Montgomery:But sometimes that doesn't happen with a late show. They just some production assistant, which are just kids right out of college desperate to be in TV, and they run in and throw highlights in front of you, you know, while you're live on the air. And so that happened to me one night and I go right to. I go, okay, let's go to Wrigley Field. You know I didn't have a chance to look ahead and the first shot says oh, a guy got hit by a foul tip in the front row at Wrigley Field and the guys you know got hit with the ball. Well, I know this is a mistake and but I don't have time to correct it because I have to move on to the next highlight. So at the end of every sports center there's something called a postmortem, and the postmortem is where everybody in the show sits around a big conference table. We discuss what went well, what went poorly and what can we do better.
Papamutes:That's where Bud shows up, yeah.
Anne Montgomery:So I raised my hand. I said well, rich, I called over the production assistant. I said we need to talk about that first play. And he goes. What do you mean, though? A guy that got hit by the foul tip? I said, rich, he wasn't hit with a foul tip. That's impossible.
Anne Montgomery:A foul tip is a ball that goes from the bat to the catcher's glove, is caught. It's a strike, but it's a live ball. That means if some guy's stealing home, the umpire has to stop and wait, and to stop and wait, and he's, he's, you can make a play on him. A foul ball is a dead ball. It goes out of play.
Anne Montgomery:So the guy that got hit in the front row got hit with a foul ball. There's silence, not one guy said anything, and finally, um, the producer goes. Is it that big a deal? I said, well, yeah, it is that big a deal. And rich gets up and he goes you're nothing but a picky bitch. I said no. I said I. I said I'm an umpire. I said and some people either know I'm an umpire and that's a big mistake. Okay, because it's a live ball. Foul tip, foul ball, two different things, and he stomped out. Not one guy defended me, and the next day I got called into my boss's office and I was ordered to apologize to Rich because I hurt his feelings and I was ordered to apologize to Rich because I hurt his feelings.
Anne Montgomery:Sounds like today. Well, I was like, but I'm right. I mean, I'm an umpire. I understand this, and wouldn't you think ESPN would want it to be right?
Anne Montgomery:You would think yeah, and then this was before the internet. I know people don't believe there was a time before then, but there was. So we didn't have access to every bit of information constantly. But there was a guy at ESPN named Howie and for months I didn't know who this guy was. He just wandered around the newsroom all the time. And then I found out he was the information guy. You could ask him any question about any sport in the history of the planet and he could answer it. And if he couldn't answer it in a second, he could go find it. So I never dealt with Howie.
Anne Montgomery:And then one day I was on time crunch and I had to find a piece of information. I don't remember what the information was at this point and I said Howie, because he walked right by my desk and he said here's the information. And so I went on the air. The next day my boss calls me and he goes why did you say that? Live on the air? I went, what are you talking about? And he gave me the piece of information. I said oh, and I paused because I didn't want to throw Howie under the bus, thinking that he made an error of some kind. And then I see him standing in the doorway and he's smiling at me and I said Howie gave me that information before I went on the air and Howie said I never told her anything wow so now I can't use this.
Anne Montgomery:The guy with all the information.
Papamutes:It was that kind of stuff so at that time, I mean I grew up, you know I'm in Pittsburgh, I'm watching sports, I'm, you know I love sports. I've seen SportsCenter, I I've seen you, but I mean, who was their recognizable name, so to speak? That was good. You know what I mean. Like, I'm trying to think of the name.
Anne Montgomery:Mike Tirico was my first long-term partner. We worked six months, eight months together.
Papamutes:He's a good guy.
Anne Montgomery:Dan Patrick, great guy. Oh, who's my buddy? Who does college football? I shared it. Fowler, chris Fowler, very nice man. Please don't get the impression that everybody was mean, they weren't. But you know we're all in a. It's hard to like say anybody was buddies with anyone. We're all in a hurry. You know doing the news every night is manic craziness. I can imagine but but yeah, no, I don't want to give the impression that there weren't some good people.
Papamutes:There were yeah, great, great. Now, um, who do you admire in the broadcasting universe, whether it's now or back then? I mean, I know you named some just now, but who do you? Who do you look at and say now, that's the way to do it, man or or female?
Anne Montgomery:That's hard. That's hard for me because, I'll be truly honest with you, the last five, six years I don't pay as much attention as I used to. I watch football, I watch NFL, I'll watch a little college ball, but much of the time I have another home. I live in the Virgin Islands. I know poor me. I know I live in St Croix and down there we get cricket and um. I don't have the same access I used to. I don't have a newspaper that that gives me a lot of information. I don't read sports illustrated anymore because you can only read it online now. So I I've sort of fallen out of paying much attention.
Papamutes:How about when you were broadcasting?
Anne Montgomery:I really didn't, I really didn't, honestly, I didn't watch that much. It sounds absurd.
Papamutes:You're busy doing your thing, right.
Anne Montgomery:Yeah, I was working in the bar, I officiated, I mean, sometimes, two sports a season. I might be doing hockey and baseball at the same time, you know the seasons overlapped or football. I mean it was crazy, and I worked nights in a restaurant. So I'll be honest. And then once I was in TV, I didn't have time to watch anybody else in TV. So I don't, I just remember people who were nice, people who were nice to me, you know, who didn't see me as a threat, because in a lot of the places I went, there were always some people who were offended by my being there, because, you know, today they're women direct producers, there's women, camera people, there's women and no one even blinks an eye.
Anne Montgomery:But I was always the only one, and so sometimes it was awkward, you know, especially locker rooms and that kind of thing which, no, nobody should go into locker rooms except athletes. I really think we shouldn't. I think they should be left alone, but I think they should also have to come and talk to us because too many times they sneak out. So bottom line is, I honestly can't think of anybody. I just know some people were nice Chris Berman's a great guy, you know, some were nice and some were not.
Papamutes:You know, as far as interviewing athletes, which sport do you think are the most cordial athletes?
Anne Montgomery:Not that the other ones are evil, but in general I don't think it's a sport by sport thing, I think it's a human thing. I've been in situations where athletes have saved my butt and they didn't have to. And I don't know if you remember Manute Bull? Oh yeah, sure, and I didn't know him I was covering, I didn't know if you remember Manute Bull oh, yeah, sure, and I didn't know him.
Anne Montgomery:I was covering the NBA playoffs. The Suns were playing Golden State and I had to do a feature on Manute Bull for the news and I'll never forget. This was a bad guy, good guy, guy thing, because I was with a whole bunch of media people from Phoenix and we're all you know, we all travel together, we all have drinks together, and the night before I'd ask one of the other local guys from Phoenix what time the press conference was the next morning. He said 10 o'clock. I said great. So my camera guy and I showed up at 930 and the press conference is over.
Papamutes:Really.
Anne Montgomery:Yeah, and that guy was waiting for me. He was sitting in a chair with his hands behind his head and his feet stretched out. He goes oh, are we a little late for the press conference? And I went crap, and he did it on purpose and my cameraman was a big guy and I thought he was going to hurt him. And I'm standing there going, how am I going to get my piece done for the five o'clock news?
Anne Montgomery:And at that point the media woman it was a woman at that point, which was rare back then came out and I explained what happened, that I had a problem and I needed to see Manute Ball and she said look, he's done for the day. He really, you know it's time for him to go home. But she goes. But I'll tell him. I'll tell him you're here, but I can't guarantee anything. Damn, if manute ball didn't come out and he was charming and kind and you're right, I had I held my microphone up and barely touched his. You know could pass the middle of his chest, but he was. He didn't have to do that, he didn't know me from anybody, but he took his own personal time and saved me. And those are the things I remember and some guys are just nice people. Jim Abbott, what a great guy.
Papamutes:Yeah sure.
Anne Montgomery:Yeah, and I have to tell you, back in August I fell and broke my arm in three places and had pins and I was so upset and so angry I couldn't function. It was a mess. I had to have surgery and I remember trying to tie my shoes and I was so pissed I couldn't do anything. And then I remembered an interview with Jim Abbott and I had him on a beautiful sunny day in spring and here in Scottsdale and uh, and I said you know, you know how do you do things, how you know, cause he had one arm and he said look, my parents did not spoil me. My parents said figure it out. And I asked I said how do you tie your shoes? He said you just keep trying to tie your shoes. And so I thought of him when I couldn't tie my shoes and he was the nicest guy in the world.
Papamutes:Yeah, and for people who are not familiar with him, he was a pitcher. Yeah, he was a pitcher.
Anne Montgomery:Do you remember the video of him fielding a comebacker to the mound? Yeah, with his glove. I ran it frame by frame and he would have the glove. He would pitch, of course, with his hand, and then he would flip the glove from his not the one that didn't have a hand and field the ball. It was the most incredible thing I've ever seen. Yeah, and you know, he said he got into sports because he didn't want to be different, and so it's those memories that I have that make all of that worthwhile.
Papamutes:Do you think journalism has changed for the better?
Anne Montgomery:Of course not If you're talking about any journalism. It used to be. If you didn't have three people verify a piece of information, you didn't go with it. Really, you had to have proof. You didn't go on a hunch. You didn't go because you want to be the first that reported something. You reported on truth and I could. I ended up teaching journalism for a long time. It horrifies me that nobody seems to care whether something's true or not. It's all about. Well, if I get it first, that makes me great, and if I have to retract it later, who cares? That would have never flown back then.
Papamutes:Do you think you need a degree in journalism nowadays?
Anne Montgomery:Not at all. No, wow, no, honestly, no one needs a degree in journalism. You need to know how to write, and that's what people don't understand about sports broadcasting. I taught sports broadcasting briefly at Arizona State University and they were shocked. I said the most important thing in broadcasting is can you tell a story? Can you write a story? Because we all say what we write. I'm not talking about guys doing live games, that's different. I'm talking about I'm doing SportsCenter. All those are written stories that we have to write ahead of time. So in the course of any day I might write dozens of stories. Some might be 15 seconds long, some might be a minute and a half, some might be four minutes. It depends on what you're doing. But we have to tell stories. You have to be a writer, and they're always shocked about that. They think, oh no, you can just have your microphone to talk. No, you can't. That's not how that works. You have to be a writer.
Papamutes:Do you remember a story at ESPN, or your time at ESPN, that was like a I don't know, a worldwide you know death of an athlete or something that was a really big story that you had to go on the air for?
Anne Montgomery:Magic and AIDS. I mean, that was pretty big.
Papamutes:Yeah, still alive.
Anne Montgomery:Yeah.
Papamutes:N ow that's magical.
Anne Montgomery:Who also was a great guy. He, yeah, he's a good guy too.
Papamutes:You know I can't, it's a blur I mean, you weren't there for the OJ debacle, right?
Anne Montgomery:No, no, where was I see? I don't know I, you know, Oh when, what year was?
Papamutes:1995 is when. .
Anne Montgomery:shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);"> </span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="83" data-eindex="9" data-key="839was1915. 285" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">was</span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="83" data-eindex="10" data-key="8310 1915. 466" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: I was a print reporter by then. Okay, um, I told you once I the idea for women in especially sports broadcasting is that the target audience is 18 to 34-year-old males, and once you're over 35, you're not hot enough to be on the air anymore. Now they've gotten caught on this, which is why you see older women still being sportscasters. In my time it's like no, I worked for five TV stations and suddenly I couldn't get a job anywhere in the country.
Anne Montgomery:So, yeah, you're just not hot enough anymore and I'll tell you the honest truth, I was depressed. I didn't want to see anybody I knew. I went from anchoring SportsCenter to coming back to Phoenix and officiating Pop Warner Football and Little League, because those are the only skills I had that anybody would pay for. Wow. I did later end up working with the Suns for two seasons, but that was part-time. That was just during the NBA season. That was fun. But, yeah, I really didn't want to see anyone I knew, because I didn't want them to say what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm back to officiating kids and I will say this I became an official so I could become a sports caster. I never thought I'd be an official for 40 years, but I got hooked on it. I called my last high school football game in 2019. The last 24 years I was a referee and crew chief. So how many referees on a football field Trick
Papamutes:Give me a number Well, referees or officials.
Anne Montgomery:There you go. That's the difference. It's the same in Pop Warner, in the NFL. Ok. So the last 24 years of my career I was the referee and crew chief, which means I wore the white hat. I said holding 76 offense and said don't talk to the press box, I was in charge. I miss that desperately. I don't miss TV. I was a teacher for 20 years. Don't talk to the press box, I was in charge. I miss that desperately. I don't miss TV. I was a teacher for 20 years. I don't miss that. I miss Friday night football.
Papamutes:Wow, how was the coin, the paycheck at ESPN? I mean, when you went there was it substantially more than a TV station in I don't know.
Anne Montgomery:Arizona it was, but it was nothing like they paid the men.
Anne Montgomery:I never made what the men made. And then ESPN periodically fires a whole bunch of people at a time, mostly because they are making too much money. You usually sign a two-year deal and then it goes to another two-year deal so they get rid of a lot of people and hire new people at lower rates. So I don't know, I just know as you go up in market size. So my first, columbus, georgia, was the 109th market in the country.
Anne Montgomery:I went from there to Rochester, new York, lovely town, 69th market. So I made a lot more there. I made more than double what I made in Georgia. Then I went to Phoenix and made a lot more because Phoenix was close to being a top 20 market at that point. So as you go, it's like minor league baseball. Okay, you start out in an A ball town and you eat crap food and you stay in bad hotels and then AA is a little better and AAA is better, but everybody wants to be in the major leagues and I guess I spent a couple of years in the major leagues at ESPN.
Papamutes:What, um, if you could go back in time and just morph into a professional, official one sport, which would it be?
Anne Montgomery:Football probably, and originally baseball was my favorite. Um, I loved baseball, uh, but I will be deadly honest with you I never want to get hit with another baseball. I would rather be run over by three football players and be hit with a baseball.
Papamutes:So if you could flashback to college, the young and Montgomery, what would you change, If anything?
Anne Montgomery:I mean, I know it's a hypothetical, but I, I, you know, I have very few regrets, but I, I, you know, I have very few regrets very few things.
Papamutes:I change, I, I, I just I don't know.
Anne Montgomery:You know, I just advice for anyone that's in the. I mean keep going, keep going. It was mostly when I was out of college that it was frustrating. I mean, my family disowned me for a couple of years. My parents came down to Washington and tried to convince me to go back to college because I was such an embarrassment that I was a waitress. And I said no. I said you don't understand. I said I'm going to, I'm a, I'm a referee in an umpire and I'm going to be a sportscaster. And they said no, you're not.
Anne Montgomery:My mother did, my dad didn't, my mother did. And she said we'll send you back to school, you can be a teacher. I said I don't want to be a teacher, I want to be a sportscaster. And she said you're embarrassing us. What are we supposed to say when people ask about you? Like, tell them I'm going to be a sportscaster and that I'm a referee. And my mother died last summer at two weeks shy of 99. And it wasn't until maybe two years ago that my mother, she read one of my books, or she was reading my bio in my book, and she goes oh my, you've done quite a few things in your life. I'm like where have you been, mom? Where have you been? So yeah, it took till she was about 96.
Papamutes:That's OK, never too late.
Anne Montgomery:Yeah.
Papamutes:Let's step outside the conversation a little bit. I have a segment called this or that. It's just a preference thing Ready. I'm just going to give you a couple of choices. It's preference, not hate on the other one. Okay, writing or reading.
Anne Montgomery:Oh, how can I pick that? That would be 50-50. Come on, okay, writing, writing, because writing gives me joy.
Papamutes:Reading entertains me. Okay, pizza or pasta.
Anne Montgomery:How can you do this? How can I pick that? That's easy, come on um pasta yes, finally someone I grew up with my dear friend growing up a huge ital family from Sicily. They adopted me. Yeah, I got to save the pasta.
Papamutes:Got to go pasta Cat or dog?
Anne Montgomery:I can't do that. I have four cats and two dogs.
Papamutes:Sounds like a cat. Thing.
Anne Montgomery:No, no, that's just how many show up here. No, we've had, we've had. No, can't do that one. I'm pleading the fifth.
Papamutes:I may know the answer to this. I could be wrong Ocean or desert?
Anne Montgomery:It might surprise you to know that I can't pick that either.
Papamutes:This is a lot of rage, I know.
Anne Montgomery:Look, I'm a scuba diver. I live in the Caribbean. I go out my back door and there is the Caribbean. I love that. But if you've never been in the Sonoran Desert which is where Phoenix is, outside of the city, not in the city it is magnificently beautiful and I have a heart and, quite honestly, I love the mountains too. I'm an outdoor girl. I like wilderness areas. I'm a mineral collector, which means I don't get to mineral collect in the Virgin Islands, but here in Arizona I do. I get to go out in wilderness areas. I love it out there, so I'm not picking that either.
Papamutes:Oh my gosh, that's an outrage. Driver or passenger.
Anne Montgomery:Passenger All right, art museum. I know that's right, it's okay.
Papamutes:Art museum or history museum.
Anne Montgomery:History museum.
Papamutes:Credit card or cash.
Anne Montgomery:Credit card, but I pay in full every month, no interest.
Papamutes:You have a celebrity crush, or did you ever have a celebrity crush?
Anne Montgomery:Jason Momoa is kind of hot. Who Jason Momoa Aquaman?
Papamutes:Oh yeah, Momoa Aquaman. Oh yeah, Okay.
Anne Montgomery:Not really.
Papamutes:Any profession you would like to have tried, that you haven't.
Anne Montgomery:Yes, archaeology, I love history and I love ancient history. In fact, I have a book coming out that's about a man who was buried outside of Flagstaff, arizona, 900 years ago and they call him the magician. And I have a novel coming out. It was actually published a while back, but now it's being republished, so that just got accepted and should be coming out sometime. And yeah, it's about it's archaeology, so I had to study pots and weapons. And yeah, it's archaeology, so I had to study pots and weapons.
Anne Montgomery:And yeah, in another life I'd be an archaeologist.
Papamutes:Now your Forgotten Sons is self-published or published.
Anne Montgomery:Oh no, All my books are traditionally published. I have real publishers. No, I don't have to pay the bills.
Anne Montgomery:Cool Favorite season of the year. If you had to pick one, well, when I lived in the East, it would be fall, it would be fall, but I've mostly lived without what you consider a season. Sure, because I've lived in Phoenix for over 31 years and I live in the Caribbean and our seasons are, so they don't change dramatically like your. Spring, summer, winter, fall. It's always tropical in the tropics, it's mostly always hot in the desert, but as a kid growing up in New Jersey, I loved the fall.
Papamutes:Cool Favorite food.
Anne Montgomery:Chocolate Is that a food?
Papamutes:Works for me. Uh, advice for a younger you don't take everything so seriously.
Anne Montgomery:It will work out there you go.
Papamutes:Yeah, good advice, good advice. Now the book. Your forgotten sons. I mean, I ask this question all the time and it's kind of obvious online, but where can you get the book?
Anne Montgomery:places. I have a website, annmontgomerywritercom that's Ann with an E, and there's a universal link to 10 places you can buy it, so you can get it pretty much anywhere. You know, you feel a bit like a voyeur reading someone else's letters, and some were to his mom and some were to his brother-in-law and his sister.
Anne Montgomery:His sister was my friend, regina's mother, and she grew up as a child. His picture was on her living room wall and her mother would tell stories about Bud and there was always this things that people didn't talk about. It was mysterious, his death was mysterious, and so it was something that the family you know, they always knew there was Uncle Bud, but people talked about him in hushed terms, and so Regina was fascinated with him as a child and wrote the stories down as a child that her mother told her, and so, yeah, it was just really important to her that we did this, and it was a five-year project and we had hoped to go to Europe and go to Epinal where he's buried, but COVID hit and so that didn't happen. But we did talk to the gentleman, the Marine, who runs the cemetery in France, and he helped us quite a bit with research.
Papamutes:Well, I mean, the little bit that I have read really sucked me in, so I'm going to search it out myself. I recommend it. I appreciate you coming on, Anne. This has been great.
Anne Montgomery:Well, thank you for having me.
Papamutes:data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-eindex="14" data-key="13714This2584. 125" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; 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--tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">has</span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="17" data-key="13717 2584. 386" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);"> </span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="18" data-key="13718been2584. 426" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">been</span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="19" data-key="13719 2584. 567" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);"> </span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="20" data-key="13720an2584. 587" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">an</span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="21" data-key="13721 2584. 647" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);"> </span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="22" data-key="13722unmuted2584. 848" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">unmuted</span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="23" data-key="13723 2585. 209" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);"> </span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="24" data-key="13724podcast2585. 229" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">podcast</span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="25" data-key="13725 2585. 771" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);"> </span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="26" data-key="13726with2585. 791" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">with</span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="27" data-key="13727. 2585. Mutes 892". style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">.</span><span data-v-f58c64a0="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="137" data-eindex="28" data-key="13728 2585. 892" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);"> </span>
