Papamutes
Authors, Books & More - Hosted by Papamutes. Get to know the authors behind their books. It's fun and laughs are always welcome.
Papamutes
Julie Clark - Author 'The Lies I Tell'
Julie Clark is the New York Times best selling author of The Last Flight. All three of her books, The Ones We Choose, The Last Flight and The Lies I Tell have been optioned for television. In this episode with Papamutes, Julie talks about her recent novel, The Lies I Tell. A twisted domesticThriller. Julie chats about her writing process, gives advice for new writers and takes part in Papa's fun segments - Name That Movie, Dead or Alive, and One or the Other. Chill back, grab a favorite beverage and listen in with author Julie Clark.
Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Castro, Google Podcasts or wherever you stream your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to Unmuted with Papamutes.
Papamutes (00:10):
Welcome to Papamutes everybody. Today, my guest is Julie Clark. Julie Clark is the New York Times bestselling author of The Ones We Choose and The Last Flight, which was also a number one international bestseller and has been translated into more than 20 languages. Her most recent book, The Lies I Tell, which I recently completed, is awesome. She lives in Los Angeles, it's 6:00 AM and she's wide awake. Julie, welcome to Papamutes.
Julie Clark (00:34):
Thanks for having me.
Papamutes (00:35):
Have you always been an early morning person?
Julie Clark (00:38):
Yeah, I mean, this is when I get my writing work done. So I wake up about 3:45 or so, have a big pot of coffee and get to work. And I'm usually done with work by 6:00.
Papamutes (00:51):
Now, when did the writing bug hit you? And I'm not talking about writing for college. When did you say I want to take it to the next step and see if I can get something published and sold?
Julie Clark (01:04):
It's something that I wanted to do from a very young age. I spent a little bit of time in my 20s, really entertaining it, seriously, taking some writing classes, writing some short stories. But I just wasn't really ready yet to make that leap. So didn't go that route. I got my teaching credential. I've been a teacher for the past 25 years. A single mom. So I've been busy. And it wasn't until probably 2013 that I really said, "You know what? That's still something that I want to do. I want to try it." And so I just wrote a book to see if I could do it and it wasn't very good and I workshopped it and I revised it and tried to get a literary agent with it and I couldn't.
Julie Clark (01:51):
And so I wrote a different book and that book ultimately was what got me, my agent and what got me, my first book deal. And so I would say all of that happened, so I would say, started writing for real in 2013 and got my agent three years after that. My book deal one year after that. My first book published in 2018, so.
Papamutes (02:16):
Awesome. Now were your parents writers or in the creative arts, any form?
Julie Clark (02:22):
No. Uh-huh. My mother was a real estate agent for many, many years. So I drew heavily upon growing up in a real estate family for The Lies I Tell, there's a very big real estate con that's pulled in that book, but also my dad is a musician. I mean very talented musician, although he doesn't do that for a living. My brother's a comic book artist. My grandfather was a painter for fun and fairly talented. My mom is also fairly talented as a painter for fun, but nobody really has made... I mean, my brother and I make our living doing our art, but no one else in our family has done that.
Papamutes (03:09):
Awesome. Now, nowadays, as you know, people can just Google The Lies I Tell and get an idea what it's about. So for people who haven't heard about it, they're tuning in, what is The Lies I Tell about?
Julie Clark (03:23):
Okay. The lies I tell is the story of Meg Williams. Who's a con artist traveling the country under assumed names. She's creating elaborate backstories to back up, whatever lies she's telling, but she's not just griftng for profit, though that is a nice side gig. She's really building her skills as a con artist. She has one big con that she's been planning and thinking about for over a decade. And it's a man in Los Angeles who she believes is responsible for the destruction of her childhood. He stole their family home out from under them and had her living in her car right out of high school. Her mother had passed away.
Julie Clark (04:07):
And so she wants to return to Los Angeles and balance the scales of justice. He got away with something that he shouldn't have. And so she has this big plan to build her skills, to figure out how to be really, really good at this. And she does many, many years of practice. But what she doesn't know is that there's an investigative reporter named Kat Roberts, who is in Los Angeles, waiting for Meg to return. And Kat was collateral damage on a con that Meg pulled many years ago and Kat blames Meg for the destruction of her life. And so is the two women sort of circle each other and befriend each other and start becoming more and more intertwined in each other's lives, it's suddenly unclear who's the cat, who's the mouse, who's conning whom and what either of their targets really is?
Papamutes (04:58):
Are any of the characters in The Lies I Tell based on people you knew? Not that you hung out with a con artist, but how do you come up with... I'm reading it and I'm saying, "Wow, somebody could really do this if they're a con artist." How do you know that's correct information for being a con artist? You know what I mean?
Julie Clark (05:16):
A lot of research. You're right. None of the characters in the book are based on anybody. But a lot of research. So I did a lot of research on con artists. I listened to a lot of true crime podcasts.
Papamutes (05:30):
There's a lot out there.
Julie Clark (05:31):
Yeah. And there's a lot out there specifically on con artists and how they sort build their skills and weasel their way into people's lives. I read a great book called The Confidence Game by Maria Konnikova, which sort of handles the psychology of con artists and the psychology of their targets as well. What makes people fall for these outrageous stories that the rest of us from the outside looking in are kind of like, "Why didn't you see this?" And con artists are really, really good at picking their targets, number one, and making sure that they are finding vulnerable people who have needs that the con artist then figures out how to give them what they need.
Papamutes (06:24):
Now, how do you come up with a title? Is that like do you just workbook a bunch of titles? Because it's a perfect title, but are you asking other people or do you just come up with a bunch?
Julie Clark (06:35):
I'm not great at coming up with titles. So we workshopped this one for a while. My publisher's source books does a lot of market research. So we had a lot of title options that we test marketed, basically. And this one was the one that test marketed the best. So that's how we do that.
Papamutes (06:54):
Now, how long is the process from the initial idea, to it's on the shelf being sold? What are we talking about? I guess it varies with different books, but just for people that might have no idea.
Julie Clark (07:07):
Yeah, it does vary for book by book. Generally the piece that I've been on, Lies I Tell is my third book. I generally publish a book every two years. So Once We Choose came out in 2018, The Last Flight came out in 2020. The Lies I Tell in 2022. I'm kind of on pace for a 2024 publication of my next book. But every book is different. I prefer to spend about a year writing a book, really getting into it and getting into the weeds of it. And then another year of editing with my editor and getting it into production, that takes another year, at least. So normally with both The Lies I Tell and The Last Flight, we went into production at the end of August, copy edits, page proofs and the book goes to print sometime in probably February or March of the following year for a June publication. So it's a full year.
Papamutes (08:11):
Okay. So is the joy of writing for you the process? Is it the writing or is it when it's completed and you're out doing podcast and signing books, which is the joy? I mean, they're probably both enjoyable, but which is more joyful?
Julie Clark (08:28):
It's interesting, I mean, they're both very much different parts of the same job. Whatever stage I'm in, I'm glad I'm not in the other stage. So like last summer, for example, I didn't release a book and I had several close friends who were releasing books and I just remember happily working on my edits like, "I'm so glad I'm not releasing a book this summer. It's crazy making, I don't want to be doing that right now. I'd rather be doing this." Now this summer I'm thinking, "I'm so glad that I didn't have to spend my whole summer working on edits. I get to go out and talk to people and sign books. And this is the fun part of writing a book is meeting all my readers and traveling all over the country." So I think that I'm lucky, I enjoy whatever stage I happen to be in. And I know that there are pros and cons to both. And so just appreciating the one that you're in makes it a lot more fun.
Papamutes (09:28):
Now, when you found out a New York Times best selling author, in other words, do you get notified, "Hey, Julie. This is Joe Smith"? I know it's probably a number of sales and stuff, but how are you officially given that so you can actually promote yourself that way and not being fraudulent?
Julie Clark (09:47):
The list generally comes out to publishers, editors, industry people first on Wednesdays. It usually hits around 1:00 to 2:00 PM my time. And so if you're on the list, your editor will call you. Your editor will call you and be like, "Guess what?" And it's all very exciting and lots of screaming and yelling and jumping up and down.
Papamutes (10:14):
Like winning the Oscar. I mean, it's like-
Julie Clark (10:18):
Yeah. And it is, it's based on sales for sure. But no one can really figure out how it's all weighted and how it works. New York Times likes to be very mysterious about that. And so it's kind of hard. It's hard to know, but it is for sure based on sales, but how they weight different sales at different outlets. They keep that kind of hush-hush.
Papamutes (10:50):
... It's awesome. I mean, it has to be thrilling to be able to put that in front or behind your name. It's great.
Julie Clark (10:56):
Definitely.
Papamutes (10:57):
Besides the talent to write, what other qualities does a want to be write need, besides talent obviously? What else would they have to have to get books published and the whole process?
Julie Clark (11:13):
You really just have to be persistent. You have to understand that there's a lot of rejection in this industry. A lot of agents say no, a lot of editors say no, a lot of publishers say no, a lot of readers say no. And so you have to be always working on your next idea. So I think the mistake I see, a lot of writers who are early in their career making who aren't yet agented, who aren't yet published, attached to one idea and insists that this idea is their best idea.
Julie Clark (11:55):
And my experience is always, if one idea isn't working, you got to come up with another one. If you get a call with an agent who maybe wants to represent you, one of the questions they're going to ask you is what else are you working on? What other ideas do you have? Because they don't want to work on just one book. They want to work on a lot of books. So you need to have ideas ready to go. And if one isn't working, if you keep getting no, no, no... I mean, I do think sticking with it and revising it and taking notes and keeping on with that process is important. But there does come a time where you need to say, I think I got to try something different.
Papamutes (12:33):
Right, got to move on. Do you think writing can be taught? And I don't mean formatting paragraphs and stuff. I'm talking about creative writing. Do you feel someone who I don't know is not creative can be taught to be creative?
Julie Clark (12:47):
I do. I think that you have to understand what your own voice is and figure that out. And for some people that takes a long time. But I definitely think that by studying excellent writing, you can also become an excellent writer. By looking at some of the great authors out there and really taking their books apart and figuring out what makes them work so well. And also reading books that aren't very well written can also teach you a lot. So if you're not liking a book and you're a writer, I would encourage you to finish it and try to figure out what didn't work and what would you have done differently to make it work. I think that's an important exercise to take. And that will just build your skills.
Julie Clark (13:39):
But I think if you read a lot, you don't need to go get an MFA. You don't need to do any kind of graduate work to be a successful author. I mean, I don't have my MFA. But I think that if you want to write, you have to read heavily. Heavily, heavily, heavily. You need to read a lot, because that's how you're going to see what's selling. That's how you're going to see what works. That's how you're going to get a feel for the way books are paced and marketed. And finding your own voice is all a part of exploring other people's voices.
Papamutes (14:17):
Excellent. Now, who do you read?
Julie Clark (14:20):
I read everything. I love all different genres. I write thrillers, but I love reading upmarket women's fiction. I love historical fiction. I love some light fantasy every now and then. Yeah, I'll read anything.
Papamutes (14:42):
Okay. Now, when do you read? The reason I'm saying that if you're in the midst of writing, I mean writing, I'm not a writer, but it's hard. I mean to me, I'm reading book. I'm like, "Jesus, how do they"... It's a hard thing to do. Can you be in the midst of writing and I don't know, put it down and Saturday afternoon, read somebody else's book or is that-
Julie Clark (15:01):
I can mean I do my writing in the morning when my mind is fresh and open and kind of a little bit softer than it is in the afternoon. And so I mostly read in the afternoons. I'll read sometimes at lunch and I'll definitely read after work in the evenings, and on weekends I like to read. So I'm reading a lot.
Papamutes (15:24):
So it doesn't, like you're reading, "Oh God"?
Julie Clark (15:27):
I mean, they're two very separate parts of my brain and two very separate parts of my day. And I haven't had that problem.
Papamutes (15:37):
Have you had any books optioned for TV?
Julie Clark (15:42):
I have. All three of my books have been optioned.
Papamutes (15:45):
Now when you say optioned, correct me if I'm wrong, that's like they're looking at it. They're considering it or is it beyond that stage?
Julie Clark (15:53):
Yeah. An option means that a studio or a producer or both would like the option to turn your book into a TV series or a film. And so they will pay you some money to hold onto that option so that nobody else can make it. It's almost like they're renting your story idea for a certain amount of time. And in that time, their work is to find a writer for the project. Maybe find a studio for the project. If it's just a producer that's not attached to a studio, it often will involve getting other people to sign onto the project as well. Options are often renewed.
Julie Clark (16:40):
So if they don't do it within a set period of time, they can renew the option for another set period of time, if they feel like that is something that they keep wanting to pursue. And so when they have all of those things in place, it would require a pilot to be written, maybe even a full outline if it's a series, multiple, how the series is going to begin, middle, end, like an outline for all of that. And then a studio needs to say, yeah, we want to make it. And then it goes into production. And at that point they buy it, which is a different amount of money.
Papamutes (17:23):
That's exciting. I mean, just knowing it's there, it's like, "Wow. This is nice."
Julie Clark (17:27):
Yeah. I mean, it's thrilling. It's nice to know that people envision your books on a big or a small screen. That's just really exciting.
Papamutes (17:37):
So which, your choice, which one of your books would you like to see into a movie?
Julie Clark (17:43):
I actually prefer books that I write, I think that they would probably be better as a TV series. That's just my personal. I don't think a film is... Like for The Last Flight for example, a film you would lose a lot probably of Eva's backstory and Eva's storyline simply because in the time you have allotted, it just isn't enough time. And as a viewer, I'm more of a TV series. I like to really get into character and get invested in the world and get invested in the time and the place and the families. And with a film it's only two and a half hours. But I mean, it's hard to say since all of them have been optioned, I'm not going to pick a favorite.
Papamutes (18:28):
Okay.
Julie Clark (18:29):
I'm sorry. I guess whoever can get it made first, that's the one I want.
Papamutes (18:34):
Of course. Okay. Makes sense. Reason I ask is I have a segment I call Name That Movie. Now, are you a movie buff?
Julie Clark (18:41):
Not really. No.
Papamutes (18:42):
But you have watched movies. I'm assuming you've watched.
Julie Clark (18:45):
Yes, of course.
Papamutes (18:45):
Okay. So this is simple stuff. This is name that movie. Very simple, kind of off the grid here. I'm going to give you a name of a movie and you tell me who the star was. Very simple. If I said Rocky, obviously it would be Sylvester Stallone. So that's an easy one.
Julie Clark (19:00):
You are not playing my strengths here. I'm bad with star names too, but okay. I'll do my best.
Papamutes (19:05):
You only need one to get some Papamutes merchandise, so-
Julie Clark (19:09):
Oh, all right.
Papamutes (19:10):
... one correct. Here we go. All right. So name that movie with Julie Clark. Who starred in the movie Pretty in Pink.
Julie Clark (19:19):
Oh, Molly Ringwald.
Papamutes (19:20):
Correct? What are you talking about? You know what you're doing.
Julie Clark (19:24):
Well, I mean, I didn't know, we were talking about movies from the 80s. I mean, that's my childhood, so there we go. I did watch-
Papamutes (19:29):
I have to research a little bit here.
Julie Clark (19:31):
... Are we doing like John Hughes movies? Because we could go deep into those.
Papamutes (19:34):
You could. Dead Poet Society.
Julie Clark (19:39):
Robin Williams.
Papamutes (19:40):
Two for two. She's on fire. Edward Scissorhands.
Julie Clark (19:45):
Johnny Depp.
Papamutes (19:46):
That is correct. Misery.
Julie Clark (19:53):
Was that Jack Nicholson?
Papamutes (19:56):
Nope.
Julie Clark (19:56):
No. Who was in that movie?
Papamutes (19:58):
That would be James Caan.
Julie Clark (20:00):
Oh, yeah.
Papamutes (20:02):
Erin Brockovich.
Julie Clark (20:04):
Julia Roberts.
Papamutes (20:07):
Another good book made into a movie. Just Mercy.
Julie Clark (20:13):
I don't know that one.
Papamutes (20:14):
That would be Michael B. Jordan.
Julie Clark (20:16):
Okay.
Papamutes (20:18):
And last one. And there's a bunch of these, but he's in all of them. Ironman.
Julie Clark (20:27):
Arnold Schwarzenegger? I don't know. I don't watch those movies.
Papamutes (20:31):
Robert Downey Jr.
Julie Clark (20:33):
Oh yeah. I don't watch those movies.
Papamutes (20:38):
Here's a segment that could be a book. It's called Dead or Alive.
Julie Clark (20:42):
Okay.
Papamutes (20:43):
I'll give you a celebrity. Well, it doesn't have to be an actor, but someone who's famous. Tell me dead or alive. Here we go. Dead or alive? James Caan.
Julie Clark (20:52):
I think. I don't know.
Papamutes (20:56):
Got to pick one. Got to pick one.
Julie Clark (20:57):
Dead.
Papamutes (20:58):
What's your gut say?
Julie Clark (21:00):
Dead.
Papamutes (21:00):
He is dead. He just died. Like a month ago? Actor William Hurt.
Julie Clark (21:09):
Kirk?
Papamutes (21:09):
Hurt.
Julie Clark (21:11):
Oh, Hurt. I think alive.
Papamutes (21:13):
Dead. He just recently died too. Actor William Shatner, AKA Star Trek.
Julie Clark (21:21):
Oh, he's alive. He's alive still.
Papamutes (21:22):
He is alive.
Julie Clark (21:23):
Yeah.
Papamutes (21:23):
Queen Elizabeth II.
Julie Clark (21:26):
Oh, she's alive, right? I hope.
Papamutes (21:28):
She is. She is still. I mean she's up there but she's alive.
Julie Clark (21:34):
Yeah, I worry about her a little bit.
Papamutes (21:37):
Talk show host and former mayor actually Jerry Springer.
Julie Clark (21:41):
I have no idea.
Papamutes (21:42):
Crazy TV show. He's alive. Barbara Walters.
Julie Clark (21:46):
She's alive.
Papamutes (21:47):
She is alive. Last one, Meatloaf the singer. Not the food.
Julie Clark (21:52):
I think Meatloaf is dead.
Papamutes (21:54):
He is dead, died this year. I mean a lot of deaths this year. This segment is new. I'm just going to try it. I don't even have a correct name for it's called One or The Other. I'm going to give you a choice and if you choose one, the other one is out forever.
Julie Clark (22:08):
All right.
Papamutes (22:09):
All right, here we go. Cat or dog?
Julie Clark (22:12):
Dog.
Papamutes (22:13):
Pizza or pasta?
Julie Clark (22:15):
Pizza.
Papamutes (22:16):
Wow. Shocking. I love pasta. I love both. I think I know the answer on this one, movies or books?
Julie Clark (22:25):
Books.
Papamutes (22:26):
Correct. Wine or beer?
Julie Clark (22:28):
Wine. Used to be beer, but I'm older now. It has to be, wine. I can't do beer anymore. Yeah.
Papamutes (22:33):
Okay.
Julie Clark (22:37):
As we age things change.
Papamutes (22:38):
I hear you. Pacino or De Niro? And I mean sitting down and have dinner or something not like, you know.
Julie Clark (22:47):
Oh, De Niro. Yeah.
Papamutes (22:51):
Oh, I got to go Pacino. He's my number one fantasy guest. You don't know him, do you?
Julie Clark (22:57):
I do, Al Pacino. I mean, I don't know him personally.
Papamutes (23:00):
No. No. I mean you're in L.A. I was taking a shot.
Julie Clark (23:02):
Yeah. No.
Papamutes (23:05):
Ice cream or chocolate?
Julie Clark (23:08):
Probably chocolate.
Papamutes (23:10):
Okay. Because you could always have chocolate ice cream.
Julie Clark (23:14):
Yeah, that's true. But probably chocolate.
Papamutes (23:17):
Okay. Steak or lobster?
Julie Clark (23:20):
Oh, that's a tough one. Probably steak.
Papamutes (23:27):
Okay. Last one. Now I'm talking luxury here. Train or plane?
Julie Clark (23:33):
Plane.
Papamutes (23:36):
Wow. Luxury plane, over a luxury train.
Julie Clark (23:40):
Yeah.
Papamutes (23:40):
Okay. So what's coming up in the future for Julie Clark plans?
Julie Clark (23:46):
Ah. I'm working on my next book and gearing up for a new school year, getting my kids off and back to school as well. Looking forward to cooler weather in the fall. I mean, it's not that hot here in Los Angeles, but it's hot for us, which is high 70s, mid 80s. Sometimes up to 90. We don't like that too much. So looking forward to some fall weather and yeah, just closing up this year.
Papamutes (24:15):
But I really appreciate you coming on.
Julie Clark (24:17):
Sure.
Papamutes (24:17):
It's been a blast. I will be in touch. And have a great day.
Julie Clark (24:23):
Thank you. You too.
Papamutes (24:24):
Take care.
Julie Clark (24:25):
Bye.
Papamutes (24:25):
Bye-bye. There you have it, Julie Clark author, The Ones We Choose, The Last Flight, The Lies I Tell, all excellent books. I've read one. I'm finishing The Last Flight. But if you Google those titles, you can purchase them right online. I highly recommend it. Great reads, great stories. Nice woman. And that's all I got, so until next time, take care.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
This has been an unmuted podcast with Papamutes.
